Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nakamura splits with Kasparov (Read 32097 times)
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #21 - 12/19/11 at 00:01:14
Post Tools
JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 22:27:27:


... I'm still waiting for anybody to cite a classic Kasparovian ending.  It's odd that.

...

What's odd is that you didn't bother to look up Kasparov in endgame manuals yourself. It's true, Dvoretsky seems not to like Kasparov very much. I think every example in Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual is either a misplayed endgame, a loss by Kasparov, or an example of his being "lucky" that his opponent didn't find an obvious resource.

Some examples include Sveshnikov-Kasparov (1979) where Kasparov outplayed his much more experienced opponent from a same-colored Bishop endgame with even material.

Judit Polgar's famous loss to Kasparov in a pure R vs R+N endgame can be viewed as poor technique by White, but Kasparov also deserves credit for finding a win in this extremely tricky endgame.


However other endgame manuals, including Fundamental Chess Endings, do cover some of his more famous endgames. 

Kasparov-Timman (Linares 1992) shows an elegant finish in a N vs B endgame.

Kasparov was perhaps at his best in complex poaitions, and his Q endgame technique should definitely be highlighted. Topalov-Kasparov (Linares 1999) is one of these extremely difficult endgames where Kasparov took advantage of every slight misstep to forge a win.

Kasparov proved his endgame skill in the Candidates' Final of 1983 against Smyslov. Smyslov repeatedly sought simplified positions and Kasparov repeatedly punished my hero. Kasparov scored four wins, and they were all realised in the endgame (after he gained an edge earlier, granted).

There are many examples of Kasparov's endgame mastery. You just need to look.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 449
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #20 - 12/18/11 at 23:50:31
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/18/11 at 23:07:13:
JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 22:27:27:
"you look at middlegames or endgames and I’m quite convinced there are other players who are better than he was" (my emphasis).

This is still a bad reason to split with Kasparov. After all lots of famous trainers were considerably weaker than their pupils.


Oh sure, but then it seems that Nakamura's words were probably generated by the end of his working relationship with Kasparov rather than a description of why they stopped working together.  The point I was making was that he was not necessarily being as disparaging about Gazza's chess skills as most folk seem to have assumed.  (That said, he could have chosen his words with more care and must have known what reaction he'd provoke).

As for what 'classic' means - in essence it's open.  I'm just trying to get examples of what people feels are Kasparov's best endgames because, as I explained earlier, none were jumping to mind as they do for other players.

To semi-answer my own question, having done a moment's nosing around the database, we do at least know that Kasparov understood the Vancura position ... or at least that Karpov assumed that he did.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1067237


I suppose not losing some of those lost positions towards the start of the Kramnik match should count for something too.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #19 - 12/18/11 at 23:07:13
Post Tools
JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 22:27:27:
"you look at middlegames or endgames and I’m quite convinced there are other players who are better than he was" (my emphasis).

This is still a bad reason to split with Kasparov. After all lots of famous trainers were considerably weaker than their pupils.

JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 22:27:27:
I'm still waiting for anybody to cite a classic Kasparovian ending.

Well, it's not obvious what "classic" means, but the 16th game against Karpov in Sevilla/New York was a fine achievement.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 449
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #18 - 12/18/11 at 22:27:27
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/18/11 at 21:03:49:
Anyhow, to get back to the subject of this thread, the very idea that Kasparov was relatively weak in the endgame is utter nonsense.


I find it hard to accept myself too, although I'm still waiting for anybody to cite a classic Kasparovian ending.  It's odd that.

Anyhoo, one thing about Namamura's comments that I haven't seen remarked upon is the tense he used:-

"you look at middlegames or endgames and I’m quite convinced there are other players who are better than he was" (my emphasis).

So did Nakamura intend to say that there are players around *now* who are better than Kasparov was at middle game and endgame play rather than players of Kasparov's era.  That seems more plausible because of advances in the game/and computer developments etc - although, still debatable of course.



  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1414
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #17 - 12/18/11 at 22:11:25
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/18/11 at 21:03:49:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/18/11 at 19:07:29:
There's a saying, not every world champion has been a great opening player, but every world champion has been a great endgame player

Doesn't that apply to about every top player? Forgive me for bringing up my hero, but he managed to outplay Alekhine ánd Capablanca in the endgame on occasion (saving a lost endgame against the latter in Moscow 1925).
Another example of course is Shirov with Bxh3!
Anyhow, to get back to the subject of this thread, the very idea that Kasparov was relatively weak in the endgame is utter nonsense. Karpov would have butchered him remorselessly.
Kasparov had one weakness (or so I've read from chessplayers who are much, much stronger than me) and that is a strong preference for forcing, violent means in positions that were ánd somewhat inferior (but not lost yet) ánd quite passive.


Bxh3 might be my favorite move of any game ever played.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #16 - 12/18/11 at 21:03:49
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/18/11 at 19:07:29:
There's a saying, not every world champion has been a great opening player, but every world champion has been a great endgame player

Doesn't that apply to about every top player? Forgive me for bringing up my hero, but he managed to outplay Alekhine ánd Capablanca in the endgame on occasion (saving a lost endgame against the latter in Moscow 1925).
Another example of course is Shirov with Bxh3!
Anyhow, to get back to the subject of this thread, the very idea that Kasparov was relatively weak in the endgame is utter nonsense. Karpov would have butchered him remorselessly.
Kasparov had one weakness (or so I've read from chessplayers who are much, much stronger than me) and that is a strong preference for forcing, violent means in positions that were ánd somewhat inferior (but not lost yet) ánd quite passive.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1414
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #15 - 12/18/11 at 20:36:53
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/18/11 at 19:07:29:
JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 15:57:06:
Out of interest, what do people think are the 'classic' Kasparov endgames?

How about Kasparov-Short, where Short missed a draw in a rook endgame? (I'll have to look up which one)

Actually, Kasparov outplayed Karpov in a number of brilliant endgames. I'll have to look up the exact match numbers, but some of his endgame conceptions have been breathtaking.

There's a saying, not every world champion has been a great opening player, but every world champion has been a great endgame player (Yes, that includes Tal. If there's any doubting that, take a look at Marin's excellent book on the world champions.)

Includes Tal? Duh... he was known not just for his sacrifices but his endgame prowess (particularly in minor piece endgames) that led to him holding the 2 longest records for undefeated streaks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 449
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #14 - 12/18/11 at 19:42:03
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/18/11 at 19:07:29:
There's a saying, not every world champion has been a great opening player, but every world champion has been a great endgame player (Yes, that includes Tal. If there's any doubting that, take a look at Marin's excellent book on the world champions.)


I know the Short ending you mean.  It was the 9th game from the 1993 World Championship match.  The fact that Gazza blundered a winning position to allow Short, albeit only momentarily, a draw rather disqualifies it from being a classic though doesn't it?

It was actually the absence of a Kasparov chapter in Marin's book that prompted me to ask the question.  I didn't mean to imply there were none, btw, I just couldn't think of any off the top of my head.  Mind you I'm far from a Kasparov expert.

Having said that I'm not a Karpov expert either and I could think of one or two of his - e.g. the Tarrasch ending from one of the early games of the 1984 match.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #13 - 12/18/11 at 19:07:29
Post Tools
JonathanB wrote on 12/18/11 at 15:57:06:
Out of interest, what do people think are the 'classic' Kasparov endgames?

How about Kasparov-Short, where Short missed a draw in a rook endgame? (I'll have to look up which one)

Actually, Kasparov outplayed Karpov in a number of brilliant endgames. I'll have to look up the exact match numbers, but some of his endgame conceptions have been breathtaking.

There's a saying, not every world champion has been a great opening player, but every world champion has been a great endgame player (Yes, that includes Tal. If there's any doubting that, take a look at Marin's excellent book on the world champions.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #12 - 12/18/11 at 18:30:39
Post Tools
Apparently he doesnt need arrogance lessons by the master Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 449
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #11 - 12/18/11 at 15:57:06
Post Tools
Out of interest, what do people think are the 'classic' Kasparov endgames?
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #10 - 12/18/11 at 12:26:39
Post Tools
Viking wrote on 12/18/11 at 12:10:54:
I doubt many will last long in a teacher - student relationship with Kasparov... Roll Eyes

Well if I had the chance, it could be for eternity.... Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #9 - 12/18/11 at 12:10:54
Post Tools
I doubt many will last long in a teacher - student relationship with Kasparov... Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 988
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #8 - 12/18/11 at 10:51:16
Post Tools
Uhohspaghettio wrote on 12/18/11 at 00:09:06:
Where is the "venom"? He just said Kasparov's best strengths were in his openings...

Read it again. He says more in fact.

AND: About every CCCP world champion (except Tal) was somewhere written his success (at least after getting the title) is due to better opening preparation (aka thanks to the human resources provided by the chess association of the CCCP).

If there's no "venom" in Nakamura's remarks things are even worse: A lack of knowledge of chess history, a lack of knowledge about the state of the art when Kasparov was fighting with Karpov, a lack of knowledge what it means to compare today games with games from the 80th and 90th. It's worse because this would be really really ignorant.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1414
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Nakamura splits with Kasparov
Reply #7 - 12/18/11 at 08:14:54
Post Tools
Jupp53 wrote on 12/17/11 at 23:41:01:
Nakamura should stick to poker. His comments after his game against Anand and now show that playing chess is a waste of talent if he can't change his attitude.  Embarrassed  Cry

Nakamura has less chance at poker than most things.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo