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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials? (Read 20812 times)
nyoke
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #24 - 02/29/12 at 12:21:44
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If you're willing to try a Leningrad setup against these spoilsport lines, the only real problem in my opinion is 2.e4. But not all White players have a flexible enough repertoire to take advantage of that.



But you could try the Balogh defense. Keith Hayward thinks it's playable, so it must be a fortiori so against a d-pawn-special-player...
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #23 - 02/23/12 at 11:10:54
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 06:57:50:
But if 1. d4 d6, White can still try to play the d-pawn specials: 2. Nf3/3.Bg5 or 2. Nf3/3. e3/c3.


Yes, but Black has some extra options against the specials if he hasn't yet played ...Nf6:

1. d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 (if you're aiming for a Grünfeld you would start 1..g6, 2...Bg7 instead of course) 3.Bg5/3.Bf4/3.e3 Bg7 followed by 4...f5!? - the Leningrad is a dynamic answer to all these d-pawn specials, which White players are probably not that used to facing. See i.e. Kindermann's Leningrad book and Kovacevic/Johnsen's Win with the London System for coverage.

Black can also meet the London (which has been the biggest problem for me) with 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 Nd7 and 5...e5 as recommended by Davies in Starting Out: The Modern. Black can continue with ...f5 and ...Nh6!? or ..Nf6, or revert to a more King's Indian setup.

1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e4 Nf6! forces White to play lines with Nf3/Nc3, Nf3/Bd3 or Nf3/Nbd2 against the Pirc, since 4.e5 is nothing. The Pirc with no 4.f4, 4.Be3, 4.Bg5 or 4.g3 to worry about sounds like a good deal to me! Of course you can also invite the King's Indian for one more move with 3...Bg7.

If you're willing to try a Leningrad setup against these spoilsport lines, the only real problem in my opinion is 2.e4. But not all White players have a flexible enough repertoire to take advantage of that.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 09:58:21:
Strangely around 40-50% I get Closed Sicilians in the form of 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. g3 Nc6 4. Bg2 g6 5. d3 Bg7 6. Be3.


You can blame John Emms (Attacking with 1.e4) and Gary Lane (Anti-Sicilians section here, various books) for that. Black should be fine against 6.Be3, but have you considered varying with 2.Nc3 a6? Would fit in smoothly with the Najdorf.
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #22 - 02/23/12 at 09:58:21
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Sicilians are probably even worse for me. I would estimate that approximately 90% of my games with 1. e4 c5 are anti-Sicilians rather than Najdorfs (which is the line I play). Strangely around 40-50% I get Closed Sicilians in the form of 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. g3 Nc6 4. Bg2 g6 5. d3 Bg7 6. Be3. The rest is followed by 2. c3, then Moscow and the 2. d3/2. Qe2/King's Indian Attack lines. 
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #21 - 02/23/12 at 09:33:43
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Actually I've done an awful lot better in terms of getting main line D pawn openings - 1 d4 Nf6 then c4 32 of 48 times. Not that I've then tended to get high theory after that, but it sounds a lot better Smiley

Sicillians say though are running 50/50 for antis and opens. (and very few critical lines when I have had opens.).
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #20 - 02/23/12 at 06:57:50
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But if 1. d4 d6, White can still try to play the d-pawn specials: 2. Nf3/3.Bg5 or 2. Nf3/3. e3/c3.
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #19 - 02/23/12 at 03:40:41
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 01:15:11:
tp2205 wrote on 02/23/12 at 00:45:33:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 00:11:42:

...
For some reason players even 2100-2400 play d-pawn specials against me more often than the main lines. One IM that I played a few times played the Veresov twice against me. Another IM that I have played against many times always plays the Torre against me. Either they inexplicably play those openings regularly or perhaps it is part of their strategy to play boring openings against me...


Now if you would tell us the results of your 'boring openings' encounters and the 'interesting openings' encounters with these IMs we could comment on the wisdom of their choice. If you win all interesting games and lose all boring games I would also consider playing boring openings against you.


I won twice against the IM who played the Veresov against me. The IM who played the Torre against me is mixed results. I used to play against him many times in weekend tournaments, where I used to lose almost all the time when I was under 2000. Then when I surpassed 2000 I won against him a few times. The last time I played him a couple years ago I was able to win against his Torre again. I lost more than I won over a few year period, but he still played the Torre against me. There are some 1800-2100s who systematically play their London or Colle, and I won against them most of the time, except for a 
couple of draws due to my bad technique. But they still play those openings...


Old habits die hard.  Grin
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #18 - 02/23/12 at 01:15:11
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tp2205 wrote on 02/23/12 at 00:45:33:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 00:11:42:

...
For some reason players even 2100-2400 play d-pawn specials against me more often than the main lines. One IM that I played a few times played the Veresov twice against me. Another IM that I have played against many times always plays the Torre against me. Either they inexplicably play those openings regularly or perhaps it is part of their strategy to play boring openings against me...


Now if you would tell us the results of your 'boring openings' encounters and the 'interesting openings' encounters with these IMs we could comment on the wisdom of their choice. If you win all interesting games and lose all boring games I would also consider playing boring openings against you.


I won twice against the IM who played the Veresov against me. The IM who played the Torre against me is mixed results. I used to play against him many times in weekend tournaments, where I used to lose almost all the time when I was under 2000. Then when I surpassed 2000 I won against him a few times. The last time I played him a couple years ago I was able to win against his Torre again. I lost more than I won over a few year period, but he still played the Torre against me. There are some 1800-2100s who systematically play their London or Colle, and I won against them most of the time, except for a couple of draws due to my bad technique. But they still play those openings...
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #17 - 02/23/12 at 00:45:33
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/23/12 at 00:11:42:

...
For some reason players even 2100-2400 play d-pawn specials against me more often than the main lines. One IM that I played a few times played the Veresov twice against me. Another IM that I have played against many times always plays the Torre against me. Either they inexplicably play those openings regularly or perhaps it is part of their strategy to play boring openings against me...


Now if you would tell us the results of your 'boring openings' encounters and the 'interesting openings' encounters with these IMs we could comment on the wisdom of their choice. If you win all interesting games and lose all boring games I would also consider playing boring openings against you.
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #16 - 02/23/12 at 00:28:16
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If you are (or get a reputation of being) very good at the main lines, naturally many people will try to avoid them if they think that helps their chances. Getting the opponent out of his comfort zone is a big part of chess.

I once told a group of local players how sick I was of facing 1.c4 - you can guess which move was the most played against me for some time afterwards!

I must admit that I've often used 1...d6 and 1...g6 move orders against known "d-pawn specialists", reasoning that getting them out of their comfort zone counts for more than the slight risk of 2.e4! being played. Maybe you could try this too, and prepare the Modern, the Sniper or the Philidor for 2.e4?
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #15 - 02/23/12 at 00:11:42
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Stigma wrote on 02/22/12 at 23:39:37:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/22/12 at 20:09:52:


The problem is that there are too many of them, and too many people play them too often. When I try to play a main line opening against 1. d4 (Grünfeld, King's Indian, etc.), I would estimate 85% of the time people play Torre, Trompowsky, Colle, Veresov, London, etc. Even more annoying is that even at my level (~2250) I have to play against these openings. Playing against these openings for ~85% of 1. d4 for years gets annoying eventually, despite their lack of theoretical advantage. It is also annoying spending more time on studying 1. d4 openings without 2. c4 than actual main lines...


This sort of backs up what MartinC (iirc) has been arguing here, that amateur players in Britain (assuming you play a lot of your chess there) seem to know even less theory than in other countries? That's surprising if true, since so much of the opening theory available is English-language and even published in Britain! 

My experience, playing at 2100-2200 level mostly in Scandinavia and Germany, is very different. I've played mostly the Leningrad Dutch, the Tango and the Grünfeld against 1.d4, and more often than not I've gotten main lines within those openings, not d-pawn specials. I do get the London (boring, but that's White's privilege) and the Trompowsky (interesting and unbalanced, so I don't mind) occasionally, but that's about it! 

Btw. In the Dutch I would consider 2.Nc3, 2.Bg5 and 2.e4 the de facto main lines along with the standard setup d4/g3/Bg2/c4/Nf3/Nc3/0-0 if Black uses the 1...f5 move order. These are serious tries for advantage and Black shouldn't think of them as sidelines or cop-outs.

Of course on the internet it's a different story and d-pawn specials can be expected, but I don't lose sleep over that since online blitz is just harmless fun.


For some reason players even 2100-2400 play d-pawn specials against me more often than the main lines. One IM that I played a few times played the Veresov twice against me. Another IM that I have played against many times always plays the Torre against me. Either they inexplicably play those openings regularly or perhaps it is part of their strategy to play boring openings against me...
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #14 - 02/22/12 at 23:39:37
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/22/12 at 20:09:52:


The problem is that there are too many of them, and too many people play them too often. When I try to play a main line opening against 1. d4 (Grünfeld, King's Indian, etc.), I would estimate 85% of the time people play Torre, Trompowsky, Colle, Veresov, London, etc. Even more annoying is that even at my level (~2250) I have to play against these openings. Playing against these openings for ~85% of 1. d4 for years gets annoying eventually, despite their lack of theoretical advantage. It is also annoying spending more time on studying 1. d4 openings without 2. c4 than actual main lines...


This sort of backs up what MartinC (iirc) has been arguing here, that amateur players in Britain (assuming you play a lot of your chess there) seem to know even less theory than in other countries? That's surprising if true, since so much of the opening theory available is English-language and even published in Britain! 

My experience, playing at 2100-2200 level mostly in Scandinavia and Germany, is very different. I've played mostly the Leningrad Dutch, the Tango and the Grünfeld against 1.d4, and more often than not I've gotten main lines within those openings, not d-pawn specials. I do get the London (boring, but that's White's privilege) and the Trompowsky (interesting and unbalanced, so I don't mind) occasionally, but that's about it! 

Btw. In the Dutch I would consider 2.Nc3, 2.Bg5 and 2.e4 the de facto main lines along with the standard setup d4/g3/Bg2/c4/Nf3/Nc3/0-0 if Black uses the 1...f5 move order. These are serious tries for advantage and Black shouldn't think of them as sidelines or cop-outs.

Of course on the internet it's a different story and d-pawn specials can be expected, but I don't lose sleep over that since online blitz is just harmless fun.
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #13 - 02/22/12 at 23:09:08
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/22/12 at 20:09:52:
TN wrote on 12/30/11 at 12:36:14:
The Dutch kills some D-pawn specials.  Grin

Honestly I don't see why you would want to avoid the d-pawn specials. If your opponent wants to forfeit their first-move advantage on move two or three then I wouldn't stop them. The only danger arises if you don't understand the equal position you get out of the opening.


The problem is that there are too many of them, and too many people play them too often. When I try to play a main line opening against 1. d4 (Grünfeld, King's Indian, etc.), I would estimate 85% of the time people play Torre, Trompowsky, Colle, Veresov, London, etc. Even more annoying is that even at my level (~2250) I have to play against these openings. Playing against these openings for ~85% of 1. d4 for years gets annoying eventually, despite their lack of theoretical advantage. It is also annoying spending more time on studying 1. d4 openings without 2. c4 than actual main lines...


If you mostly face D-pawn specials then you could vary your repertoire against them, for instance 1...Nf6/2...g6, 1...Nf6/2...c5, 1...Nf6/2...e6, 1...d5/2...c5, 1...d5/2...Nf6, 1...c5, 1...e6 2.Nf3 c5, 1...e6 2.Nf3 f5 and 1...g6/2...Bg7. Of course there's the risk you'll end up in a main line where you don't know the theory in detail, but when you face D-pawn specials 85% of the time it's not such a big problem. Also studying Prie's section on ChessPublishing will improve your understanding and maybe even your enjoyment of D-pawn specials.  Smiley
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #12 - 02/22/12 at 20:09:52
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TN wrote on 12/30/11 at 12:36:14:
The Dutch kills some D-pawn specials.  Grin

Honestly I don't see why you would want to avoid the d-pawn specials. If your opponent wants to forfeit their first-move advantage on move two or three then I wouldn't stop them. The only danger arises if you don't understand the equal position you get out of the opening.


The problem is that there are too many of them, and too many people play them too often. When I try to play a main line opening against 1. d4 (Grünfeld, King's Indian, etc.), I would estimate 85% of the time people play Torre, Trompowsky, Colle, Veresov, London, etc. Even more annoying is that even at my level (~2250) I have to play against these openings. Playing against these openings for ~85% of 1. d4 for years gets annoying eventually, despite their lack of theoretical advantage. It is also annoying spending more time on studying 1. d4 openings without 2. c4 than actual main lines...
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #11 - 02/22/12 at 18:32:39
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TonyRo wrote on 02/22/12 at 17:25:23:
But I probably still wouldn't have the book done! I did see your post about the Flick-Knife with ...Qh4+, I will try to dig up the problem lines I found when I looked at the lines a while back for you.


There is no rush, the book is more important and interesting. I am still trying to get a feel for the different positions and just learn the Benoni again.
  
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Re: Does The Pirc kill the d-Pawn Spacials?
Reply #10 - 02/22/12 at 17:25:23
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But I probably still wouldn't have the book done! I did see your post about the Flick-Knife with ...Qh4+, I will try to dig up the problem lines I found when I looked at the lines a while back for you.
  
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