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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Kaufman repertoire (Read 154794 times)
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #147 - 02/13/12 at 17:20:13
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:15:46:


And WHERE IS THE REFUTATION OF THE KID???? Page 196-197, game Zolorukin-Petrosian (also covered by Vigorito on his online update of his KID Vol1 book) in the critical position after 20.Na4 best for Black is 20...b5! (not mentioned) 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.a4 Bd7! -/+ with the threat g4-g3. Black just has an enormous edge.


Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 12:46:09:
Sorry, i should have been more specific on that. Black should follow Giri-Nakamura, Reggio Emilia 2011 where Black doesn't play Nf6 and keeps his N on d7. If then Na4 he can play b5. If b5 a5 he can play Nc5. Kaufman then gives Nb2-Nc4 "with a uge edge" but this is a typical computer misunderstanding of the closed position. Black has a fantastic advantage if he plays the correct plan with h5 (instead of his 22...Bd7, see page 196 sub-variation starting with 16...Rf7) Nh8-Nf7-Bd6 and then Kh8-Rg7-Rb8-Rb7-Re7-Re8-Bc7-Qf6 and finally Nd6! and Reg8 practicaly winning! Long plan yes but i don't see what White can do instead of attacking e5 as he has practicaly closed the whole board by himself! Play at the K-side? This is suicide! Giri tried to sac a pwn with d5-d6 but "Naka" played Be6 and had no problems. 


I'm a bit confused by these two quotes, as they seem to contradict each other a bit. But it might also be the case because I don't own the Kaufman book. Anyway:

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6
8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. Rc1 Ng6 14. Nb5 b6 15. b4 a6 16. Nc3

there are three moves for black:

A) 16. ... Nf6?! seemingly the main move, but bad as it neglects control over the very important squares c5 and b6 (in lines B and C the variation Glenn Snow was talking about with Nb6 is not possible, as the Nd7 protects b6!)

B) 16. ... h5!? (Vigorito's main move) 17. c5 Rf7 18. cxd6 cxd6 19. Qb3 Rb8 and now 20.Na4 leads to Ametanoitos first quote. While I generally agree with his assessment, may it be that 22. ... g4!? is even stronger?!

C) 16. ... Rf7 (Nakamura's move) 17. Nd3 (17.c5 h5 transposes to variation B) 17... h5 18. c5 Bf8 19. cxb6 cxb6 20. b5 a5 21. Na4 Nc5 22. Nab2 (22.Ndc5: was Giri-Nakamura) and now it seems that black can't blindly carry out Ametanoitos plan as the rook is on f7. It is no obstacle, though, as it can just move to g7. E.g.:
22. ... Rg7 23. Nxc5 dxc5 24. a4 Nh8
25. Nc4 Nf7 26. Be1 Bd6 27. Bc3 Kh8 28. Qd2 Ra7 29. Kh1 Re7 30. Qe1 Re8 31. Qd2

white's last moves were a bit random, but he can't do much anyway, though I suppose her perfect spot is on b2 where at least she prevents the suggested regrouping via Bc7,Qf6 and Nd6.

Nevertheless it seems to me that black can try and play for a win if he dares to (perhaps by playing g4 anyway) and white has to sit and react.
Line B and C seem equally strong and as already mentioned often transpose into one another. So the key to the position is to keep the knight on d7 defending the queenside for as long as possible while preparing the attack with other moves (h5, Rf7, ...) first.

Another "refutation" busted?  Wink

Please tell me if there is some misconception on my part about this!
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #146 - 02/13/12 at 15:45:11
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 15:28:11:
This is very usefull of course that he gave a second line against the KID, and a line i quite like in fact because it gives fair practical chances regardless if Black equalises easily or not. Combining Vigorito's much broader coverage of this line in the first volume of his KID book with Kaufman's analysis is a good place to start because both don't consider options that the other one analyses. Of course Vigorito's coverage is much better.

I understand why such a book as Kaufman's has so many "weak spots". You cannot possibly analyse everything in a single volume with a repertoire for both colours! And believe me, i have experience in writting repertoire books! Smiley But somethings i cannot understand. As i said his Italian Game coverage is bad (and i mean the classical main lines with c3+d3 or c3+d4). If you compare the Emms' update i mentioned and do some analysis on your own you'll see that White has quite a big plus in this line (again, i am reffering to Ivanchuk-Karjakin game). Also he doesn't give the simplest equalising line available for Black (i am talking about the c3+d4 main line where Black plays Nxe4 and after Bxf7 and Qb3 Black plays Kf8 and Qe7) but on the contrary says some weird things that White gets an edge in that line in general giving inferior moves by Black to supposrt this argument without taking into consideration the most important sources n this subject. I really don't want to list the chapter's complete errors because i don't want to give the wrong impression that i fight against that book. I enjoyed his first one quite a lot and this one also gave me lots of material to start my own investigation and i saw many fresh and interesting ideas. And i don't say these thing to sound a nice person. I think that most of the foroum members here know that i say my opinion without fearing if i sound bad. Maybe despite my many objections on his analysis i still like the book because i like the author. And that is because i am a computer enginner and i repsect quite a lot his work on computer chess.



For the record, I was writing my first response while responded to Chessexplained's comment.  This makes a lot more sense now.
  
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Chessexplained
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #145 - 02/13/12 at 15:42:33
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The c3/d4 lines in the Italian I found strange as well. He gives the main line there with 7...Bxd2 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.ed5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 Nce7 as slightly better for white which seems strange to me. Of course Na5 is the main move but if black wants to avoid draw he can just play Nce7 and play on, no big deal. The 7...Nxe4 line is discarded for no reason, I agree with Ametanoitos. The c3/d3 lines are hard to cover I think due to the many move order issues. Still I feel black players need to focus on middle game study there more than on concrete lines.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #144 - 02/13/12 at 15:28:11
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This is very usefull of course that he gave a second line against the KID, and a line i quite like in fact because it gives fair practical chances regardless if Black equalises easily or not. Combining Vigorito's much broader coverage of this line in the first volume of his KID book with Kaufman's analysis is a good place to start because both don't consider options that the other one analyses. Of course Vigorito's coverage is much better.

I understand why such a book as Kaufman's has so many "weak spots". You cannot possibly analyse everything in a single volume with a repertoire for both colours! And believe me, i have experience in writting repertoire books! Smiley But somethings i cannot understand. As i said his Italian Game coverage is bad (and i mean the classical main lines with c3+d3 or c3+d4). If you compare the Emms' update i mentioned and do some analysis on your own you'll see that White has quite a big plus in this line (again, i am reffering to Ivanchuk-Karjakin game). Also he doesn't give the simplest equalising line available for Black (i am talking about the c3+d4 main line where Black plays Nxe4 and after Bxf7 and Qb3 Black plays Kf8 and Qe7) but on the contrary says some weird things that White gets an edge in that line in general giving inferior moves by Black to supposrt this argument without taking into consideration the most important sources n this subject. I really don't want to list the chapter's complete errors because i don't want to give the wrong impression that i fight against that book. I enjoyed his first one quite a lot and this one also gave me lots of material to start my own investigation and i saw many fresh and interesting ideas. And i don't say these thing to sound a nice person. I think that most of the foroum members here know that i say my opinion without fearing if i sound bad. Maybe despite my many objections on his analysis i still like the book because i like the author. And that is because i am a computer enginner and i repsect quite a lot his work on computer chess.

  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #143 - 02/13/12 at 14:39:46
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In that Chigorin line I'd say white barely equalizes. Overall considering the sheer variety of lines that need to be covered in a complete repertoire, there are bound to be weak spots. This one at least doesn't put white in serious trouble like the KID one...
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #142 - 02/13/12 at 14:05:20
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It seems that Kaufman is sometimes a victim of his engines. In Game 2 he gives the following variation in a note.



And here is evaluation "... White`s inferior pawn strucure gives Black some but not full compensation for the pawn." My problem is that i do not see how White can hold the pawn and at the end White has only an inferior pawn structure and my engines have also not found any way. But maybe my strength is not sufficient. 


It could be a typical engine "over  the horizon" - problem. 
He writes at the start of the book: "There will be positional errors due to the limits of program chess knowledge; I have done my best ot catch these myself, but i am not Carlsen or Anand, and most of what i know about chess is already in Komodo."

Kaufman writes to 5...e5 that this "rare" move "may be the reltively best move here". And i have found here a thread where this move was analyzed and it seems that Black has no problems.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #141 - 02/13/12 at 13:34:57
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Right, I managed to find Ametanoitos' point. Here are the moves to the critical point:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. Be3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. Rc1 Ng6 14. Nb5 b6 15. b4 a6
16. Nc3 Rf7 17. Nd3 Bf8 18. c5 Rb8 19. cxb6 cxb6 20. b5 a5 21. Na4 Nc5 22. Nab2 Bd7
23. Nxc5 dxc5 24. a4

This is given as "strong" by Kaufman, I guess due to Houdini's roughly +0.8 evaluation. This is weird of course, as white's only play left are some sacs, otherwise black has all the play. Giri tried some sac as well in a similar structure, but failed. 
Very strange eval by a 2400 human player. I am about the same playing level as Kaufman and never would go for such a position, regardless what Houdini 'says'.
I think Kaufman maybe had some suspicion as well, as he also included the 8.Be3 line as an alternative.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #140 - 02/13/12 at 13:24:49
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I don't have the book, but it's worth keeping in mind that Kaufman's repertoire is aimed at players up to 2200, so it's not as though GM Repertoire quality and quantity of analysis should be expected. That said it's good to point out any analytical errors so that those who bought the book can patch them up. Smiley
  

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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #139 - 02/13/12 at 13:02:26
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Chessexplained wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:55:13:
Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:15:46:
The more i read the book, the more disappointed i become, sorry...

For example his Italian Game coverage is just bad. Check Emms online coverage of the Ivanchuk-Karjankin game and compare with his analysis. And this is just one bad thing about that chapter.

And WHERE IS THE REFUTATION OF THE KID???? Page 196-197, game Zolorukin-Petrosian (also covered by Vigorito on his online update of his KID Vol1 book) in the critical position after 20.Na4 best for Black is 20...b5! (not mentioned) 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.a4 Bd7! -/+ with the threat g4-g3. Black just has an enormous edge.

There are things that i like, some of them very much indeed. But i'll back again with more information. Keep tuned! Smiley


Sorry, I don't understand the line in the KID - 21...Nf6 in particular, the N is already there. In the line in the book 20... b5 is just answered with Nb6. I don't have that Vigorito update so I can't cross check.


I don't understand either criticism.  Chessexplained's move looks to be the critical continuation after 20...b5.  Maybe 20...b5 21.Nb6 Rb8 22.Nxc8 Rxc8 23.Rc6 is one place to start more investigations.  I also looked at the Italian game you mentioned and while Emm's analysis added some details, Kaufman's coverage looks sufficient to me and even suggests a deviation for Black that he thinks is more accurate.  Looking forward to more details.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #138 - 02/13/12 at 12:46:09
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Sorry, i should have been more specific on that. Black should follow Giri-Nakamura, Reggio Emilia 2011 where Black doesn't play Nf6 and keeps his N on d7. If then Na4 he can play b5. If b5 a5 he can play Nc5. Kaufman then gives Nb2-Nc4 "with a uge edge" but this is a typical computer misunderstanding of the closed position. Black has a fantastic advantage if he plays the correct plan with h5 (instead of his 22...Bd7, see page 196 sub-variation starting with 16...Rf7) Nh8-Nf7-Bd6 and then Kh8-Rg7-Rb8-Rb7-Re7-Re8-Bc7-Qf6 and finally Nd6! and Reg8 practicaly winning! Long plan yes but i don't see what White can do instead of attacking e5 as he has practicaly closed the whole board by himself! Play at the K-side? This is suicide! Giri tried to sac a pwn with d5-d6 but "Naka" played Be6 and had no problems.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #137 - 02/13/12 at 12:31:17
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Chessexplained wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:55:13:
Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:15:46:
The more i read the book, the more disappointed i become, sorry...

For example his Italian Game coverage is just bad. Check Emms online coverage of the Ivanchuk-Karjankin game and compare with his analysis. And this is just one bad thing about that chapter.

And WHERE IS THE REFUTATION OF THE KID???? Page 196-197, game Zolorukin-Petrosian (also covered by Vigorito on his online update of his KID Vol1 book) in the critical position after 20.Na4 best for Black is 20...b5! (not mentioned) 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.a4 Bd7! -/+ with the threat g4-g3. Black just has an enormous edge.

There are things that i like, some of them very much indeed. But i'll back again with more information. Keep tuned! Smiley


Sorry, I don't understand the line in the KID - 21...Nf6 in particular, the N is already there. In the line in the book 20... b5 is just answered with Nb6. I don't have that Vigorito update so I can't cross check.


To help others follow, could someone be so kind to include the moves leading to this point, then we can understand. Thanks!
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #136 - 02/13/12 at 11:55:13
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/12 at 11:15:46:
The more i read the book, the more disappointed i become, sorry...

For example his Italian Game coverage is just bad. Check Emms online coverage of the Ivanchuk-Karjankin game and compare with his analysis. And this is just one bad thing about that chapter.

And WHERE IS THE REFUTATION OF THE KID???? Page 196-197, game Zolorukin-Petrosian (also covered by Vigorito on his online update of his KID Vol1 book) in the critical position after 20.Na4 best for Black is 20...b5! (not mentioned) 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.a4 Bd7! -/+ with the threat g4-g3. Black just has an enormous edge.

There are things that i like, some of them very much indeed. But i'll back again with more information. Keep tuned! Smiley


Sorry, I don't understand the line in the KID - 21...Nf6 in particular, the N is already there. In the line in the book 20... b5 is just answered with Nb6. I don't have that Vigorito update so I can't cross check.
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #135 - 02/13/12 at 11:15:46
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The more i read the book, the more disappointed i become, sorry...

For example his Italian Game coverage is just bad. Check Emms online coverage of the Ivanchuk-Karjankin game and compare with his analysis. And this is just one bad thing about that chapter.

And WHERE IS THE REFUTATION OF THE KID???? Page 196-197, game Zolorukin-Petrosian (also covered by Vigorito on his online update of his KID Vol1 book) in the critical position after 20.Na4 best for Black is 20...b5! (not mentioned) 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.a4 Bd7! -/+ with the threat g4-g3. Black just has an enormous edge.

There are things that i like, some of them very much indeed. But i'll back again with more information. Keep tuned! Smiley
  
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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #134 - 02/13/12 at 10:11:47
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/13/12 at 05:41:04:
what happens on 1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 c5 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nc6 6. Nc2 and then e4 trying to play some sort of Maróczy setup?


Chessexplained wrote on 02/13/12 at 09:44:56:
In the English  line 6...Bxc3+ is believed to be at least = for Black. I think he has a positive score with that move (can't check database right now).


Black does very well indeed with a score of 65%. Another good option is 6...d6 7.e4 Nh6 and ...f5.


  

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Re: The Kaufman repertoire
Reply #133 - 02/13/12 at 10:05:02
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By the way, while 5.Bg5 is covered, the book also contains other suggestions for white to avoid this altogether:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4
and the Nimzo

for the 3 move orders Black may try to reach the Semi Slav.
  
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