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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6? (Read 16645 times)
wolfsblut
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #20 - 03/14/12 at 18:05:42
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Hi, 
thanks for all your answers and thoughts! I`am now sure that 3....Be7 is better. I like to play always 3...Be7 and just `be a sitting target in the QD`because I`am knowing that this defence (say on the way to the Tartakower) ist sound and understanding is more important than anything.....
Now I´am thinking what is better after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Sc3 Be7! 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 c6 or 5...Nf6. Aronian and others play 5...c6 but perhaps 5....Nf6 is a little more flexible and there is more chance for an interesting battle. What do you think? (Sorry, once again.... Undecided)

greetings

wolfsblut
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #19 - 03/14/12 at 16:48:19
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Two of them did quite often and one of them only lost once after 3...Nf6.
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #18 - 03/14/12 at 10:33:33
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Definitely- and the following players have favoured this move order: Aronian, Karpov, Kasparov, Anand, Nakamura, Geller..........I don't think that any of them have played 3..Nf6.
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #17 - 02/26/12 at 18:04:40
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I agree, but this I don't understand:

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/25/12 at 22:36:45:
to warrant learning Nimzo or Ragozin to avoid those lines.


The Ragozin requires White to play Nf3. So I can think of a repertoire with the NID ánd the QGD and also of a repertoire with the NID and the Ragozin. But playing the Ragozin the avoid certain lines of the QGD Exchange doesn't make much sense to me.
Probably I understand you wrongly.
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #16 - 02/25/12 at 22:36:45
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A QGD player might only want to play the QGD complex and not learn the Nimzo-Indian. But learning both QGD and Nimzo might be better than settling for the 3...Nf6 line and not learning another opening. That endgame line as well as the old main line where White plays Bd3/Nge2/f3 look unpleasant enough to warrant learning Nimzo or Ragozin to avoid those lines.
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #15 - 02/25/12 at 16:29:21
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/24/12 at 09:31:58:
the transposition to the 3...Nf6 line is inevitable with this move order.

That's why he mentioned the Nimzo.
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #14 - 02/24/12 at 09:31:58
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What are the alternatives to the endgame line except the old main line? I think this is the reason to play 3...Be7 instead as well.

With the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6, the option of the Ragozin is either the advantage or the disadvantage of this move-order; if the QGD player only plays within the confines of the QGD and does not play the Ragozin, the transposition to the 3...Nf6 line is inevitable with this move order.
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #13 - 02/24/12 at 08:54:59
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If you need to stick to the 1...d5 move order, 3... Be7 seems more comfortable for Black than 3... Nf6. If you go 3... Nf6 the Nh5 lines (as given by Cox) are Black's best choice in my opinion. It's not completely equal but better than the old main lines. The endgame line by Cox with ...Bf5 just seems utterly depressing, I would never play that.

However, the best move order actually might be 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 mixing the Nimzo and QGD. This avoids all critical exchange lines altogether and also gives you some flexibility in the QGD, as you still can play Ragozin/Vienna etc., whereas after Be7 you're commited.
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #12 - 02/19/12 at 20:24:10
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You know, there's also 3...Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5, heading for a Semi-Tarrasch.  Nothing wrong with it and you might look there if you want to avoid the regular Exchange lines.  I know of no way that White can profitably avoid transposing to a regular Semi-Tarrasch.  It's no cakewalk for Black but certainly playable.
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #11 - 02/19/12 at 16:00:23
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wolfsblut wrote on 02/18/12 at 10:32:55:
I like to play the Tartakower in the QGD. But I`am not sure which moveorder is better to arrive there because of the Exchange Variation. I read somewhere some years ago a quote from Grischuk in the sens of: 3....Be7 is better than 3....Sf6- this is answered many years ago. Also Aronian and his fellow Melkumyan seem to share this opinion. But Cox choose 3...Nf6 for his book......
What is your opinion? Undecided


This is my post from the thread about IM Cox's book:

F22 wrote on 06/24/11 at 10:16:44:
I am very surprised about the repertoire that is presented for exchange variation. Both variations are extremely passive for Black:

Out of more than 30 games Black never won after: 1. d4 e6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Be7 7. e3 Nbd7 8. Bd3 Nh5 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. O-O-O Nb6 11. h3. 

And after 1. d4 e6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qf3 Bg6 8. Bxf6 Qxf6 9. Qxf6 gxf6 there are only 3 wins for Black out of some seventy odd games.

Granted this is QGD not Najdorf and draws are the norm. But in both lines the White win percentage is also big.  I will be curious to see what readers who are regular posters here have to say about the book.


Kasparov, Karpov and Aronian all favor 3. ... Be7. Petrosian made 3. ... Be7 into a main line because he wanted to avoid 3. ... Nf6 against the patriarch in the 1963 match. When was the last time someone in top 10 played 3. ... Nf6? The one I remember is almost 20 years old: Short played it against Kasparov in the 15th round of their 1993 match. The result was a crushing victory for White ...
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #10 - 02/19/12 at 10:00:47
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What i really meant is that a flexible QGD player should consider learning 2-3 lines and Tarrasch or even Semi Tarrasch (playing Nff6 and then ...c5 and capturing with the Knight on d5 as GM Athanasios Mastrovasilis does frequently) is actually two of them. Being a sitting target with an inflexible repertoire is not a good thing in the QGD. 

But again it is a matter of choice. Cox's lines in the ...Nf6 exchange are fine and give the opportunity to play later other lines than the traditional ones of the QGD (Ragozin for example). 3...Be7 seems also strong these days and if someone works on it he will have many benefits. It is a choice of taste, no clear answer exists in my humble opinion.
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #9 - 02/19/12 at 08:58:23
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TN wrote on 02/19/12 at 08:54:21:
I think the real question is this: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...c5?


I am reading Grandmaster Repertoire 10, and I would actually play 3...c5 instead. The book taught me much about the Tarrasch that I had never knew or seen before. The opening is sharp and I find that in the Tarrasch, Black has to play aggressively and briskly, which creates a large number of interesting and unclear positions.

If this is the critical question, then the question of if 3...Nf6 better than 3...c5, I definitely choose 3...c5...
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #8 - 02/19/12 at 08:54:21
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I think the real question is this: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...c5?
  

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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #7 - 02/19/12 at 08:52:22
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/19/12 at 04:56:53:
Yes.

The Exchange Variation with 3...Nf6 I find has serious problems and I would probably play 4. cxd5 instead of the Catalan if all my opponents played 3...Nf6. I read John Cox's book on the QGD, and the endgame line with 3...Nf6 seems very difficult to win to me.


I don't think it has serious problems, but I agree that it seems more difficult to win from the endgame line than in some other lines. However, as with so many opening variations, I don't think this is a big problem at club level. On the contrary, I would think that most club players would look at this endgame briefly and just conclude it is better for White and therefore be less prepared for it. It is unbalanced enough to still leave plenty of play.
  
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Re: Ultimate verdict: Is 3...Be7 better than 3...Nf6?
Reply #6 - 02/19/12 at 04:56:53
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Yes.

The Exchange Variation with 3...Nf6 I find has serious problems and I would probably play 4. cxd5 instead of the Catalan if all my opponents played 3...Nf6. I read John Cox's book on the QGD, and the endgame line with 3...Nf6 seems very difficult to win to me.
  

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