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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) English language (Read 32463 times)
TalJechin
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Re: English language
Reply #52 - 06/19/12 at 22:40:27
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One thing that's surprised me in AE is the apparent inability to differ between a cow & a bull, very often Americans will call both "a cow". I'm not sure if it's because they lead more urban lives and have never seen either in real life or if "bull" is perhaps considered only a swear word...?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: English language
Reply #51 - 06/19/12 at 20:50:23
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To say that someone is wrong is not a personal attack. However, I will delete all the extraneous comments about personal attacks.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: English language
Reply #50 - 06/19/12 at 18:03:13
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I do use the subjunctive in such cases, and it bothers me when people use "if i was" for "if i were."  (English-speakers should just be glad that there are aren't two different subjunctives, as in German.)  But I'm a bit of a language nerd, I reckon.
  
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Re: English language
Reply #49 - 06/19/12 at 17:54:13
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Yeah, "ain't" is a good example of something well preserved here and moribund in England, I believe.

American English is generally simpler than English English and, perhaps for that reason, slightly less articulate and interesting.  Only in academic circles do you find Americans correctly making use of the subjunctive, for example.  Very few Americans will say "If I were...", they will always say "If I was...".  No one ever says "Had I this .." which is neat and concise, they will only say "If I had this ..".

And in many other ways too, American is flatter and simpler.  Nobody says "the fox has gotten in amongst the chickens."  What is said is "the fox has gotten into the chickens".  That perhaps is an improvement, really. 

It also happens that American accents have flattened out.  New England, especially Downeast, Appalachia and the Old South are exceptions,but there isn't much regionalism.  Even that is flattening out over time, perhaps because of TV.  There used to be a very strong "Long Gyland" accent, but you pretty much only hear it in the movies. 

There is such a thing as a "working class" accent in England and also a "posh" accent.  Nothing really like that here.  While Southern and Appalachian regionalisms used to be associated with poverty and low eduction, they no longer are.  There used to be a "Brahmin" accent spoken by some very well-to-do New Englanders (some of you may have heard George Plimpton speak), but it seems to be dying out.   In this country it's usage, not accent, that is used to detect class in language.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: English language
Reply #48 - 06/19/12 at 15:03:01
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You can look at the treatment of English from decades ago in Encyclopaedia Britannica (which incidentally uses some British spellings but has long been American-owned) and it included discussion of such as Australian English, African English and the English of India-Pakistan.  But still.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: English language
Reply #47 - 06/19/12 at 14:24:23
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Nowadays it's not about English English vs American English, but more regional versions are acknowledged - for example, if you install a spell checker in Mozilla/Open Office environments there's a whole bunch of different Englishes to choose from, Australian, South African etc etc.

And from the following clip I leant that some 'American words' are actually old English words that had been replaced by newer ones in English. (about 8.50 in, if you don't have 11 minutes...)

  
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Re: English language
Reply #46 - 06/19/12 at 14:00:35
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I can only talk from my own perspective. Most English I hear is some sort of Euroenglish using american expressions, while writing is usually UK English. Quite weird considering most applications the writing is about is in US english. Then you get these weird instructions like 'Select organisation', but on the screenprint next to it you very clearly can see ' select organization'.

On top of that not many Brits speak proper UK English either. Personally I like the US english better, if only for understandability. You can understand the most inbred redneck or 'gangsta' better than someone from London.
  

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Re: English language
Reply #45 - 06/19/12 at 13:28:33
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/19/12 at 06:40:15:
I am wrong of course? ... Do Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Australians, South Africans, Ugandans, Singaporeans, Hong Kongers, etc. speak/write/spell/learn British English (meaning at least English with British spelling and/or terminology) or American English? Most of my family are British Commonwealth citizens (West Indies, Australia, UK, Canada, Hong Kong), and all of them have learnt British English in school. ...

Why do you always criticise me but no one else? Why? It seems as if I said, "2+3=5", you would say, "Gilchrist is a Legend is wrong again". And why do you not cease with these incessant critiques? This is precisely why I have been asking if there is a function for users to block posts from others like +censor commands. 

Is there any moderator even watching this forum?


...

Nothing personal.

A lot of people spell color "colour," but not that many native English speakers spell it that way.  It really is like Brazilian Portuguese, only moreso because of Hollywood, Silcon Valley, etc. etc.

Practically any slang widespread in America has a good chance of becoming widespread in this world.  "OK" and "yeah" were once considered Americanisms.  But peculiarly English expressions, however attractive and piquant they may be, never spread, to the best of my knowledge.  Not even in Canada do they use English expressions, only English-English spellings.

I salute England with its vibrant culture, superior education (for some -- just like here), storied past, strength in chess relative to total population (semmingly exceeding that of the U.S.) and superb literature.  I salute it for fighting on alone for two years against Hitler.  But linguistically worldwide, American speech and mode of expression have taken over.

Edited:
Comments edited to delete references to perceived personal attacks. ~SF June 19, 2012
« Last Edit: 06/19/12 at 20:52:36 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: English language
Reply #44 - 06/19/12 at 09:45:12
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/19/12 at 06:40:15:
Is there any moderator even watching this forum?

Well, yes, I've looked at it from time-to-time. I find it funny that people can get so excited about such a topic, maybe I should just delete the whole thread as it is clearly so inflammatory? Roll Eyes
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: English language
Reply #43 - 06/19/12 at 06:40:15
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I am wrong of course? ... Do Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Australians, South Africans, Ugandans, Singaporeans, Hong Kongers, etc. speak/write/spell/learn British English (meaning at least English with British spelling and/or terminology) or American English? Most of my family are British Commonwealth citizens (West Indies, Australia, UK, Canada, Hong Kong), and all of them have learnt British English in school. ...

...

Is there any moderator even watching this forum?

Edited:
Comments edited to remove references to perceived personal attacks. ~SF  June 19, 2012
« Last Edit: 06/19/12 at 20:55:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: English language
Reply #42 - 06/19/12 at 06:13:33
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Difficult questions to answer re: speakers of English. 
Gilchrist is wrong of course. 
Better to speak of varieties of English now. 
Englishes.

Interested folks can start here:
http://www.southampton.ac.uk/cge/

David Crystal and Jennifer Jenkins have written a lot on this over the years. They are good places to start.
Possible starter book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Englishes-Resource-Routledge-Introductions/dp/0415...;
  
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Re: English language
Reply #41 - 06/19/12 at 02:55:00
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I thought it was standardly accepted that American English is now the predominant version of the language, comparable to Brazilian Portuguese holding sway over European Portuguese.
  
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Re: English language
Reply #40 - 06/19/12 at 02:38:15
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/20/12 at 02:13:41:
Most of the English-speaking world speak, write, and spell British English. Since approximately 2 billion people are in the Commonwealth, they will be speaking British English...


I wanted to return to this because I recently regretted not pointing out at the time how abominably incorrect this statement is. According to my sources, there were in the year 2001 a worldwide total of 380 million native speakers of English. Of these, roughly 310 million were American (by which I mean, if anyone wants to cavil, residents of the United States). That is more than four American native speakers of English for every one from England or anywhere else.

Now yes, there are many former colonies where English is spoken as a second language. According my sources there were in 2001 about 280 million persons worldwide speaking English as a second language (a figure not limited to the so-called Commonweath; a fair number of Mexicans and Central Americans speak English, for example). But even throwing in all those speakers of English as a second language, and counting a native speaker twice a second language speaker, the American form of this language is much more spoken than the English (it's spoken to about the same exent even if you count a Mumbai Chai salesman as much as a Yorkshireman or a Midwesterner).

So the idea that the English speaking world is predominantly speaking in an English manner is a load of baloney.
  

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Re: English language
Reply #39 - 02/23/12 at 14:37:47
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You get mail.
  

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Willempie
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Re: English language
Reply #38 - 02/23/12 at 14:06:49
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Jupp53 wrote on 02/23/12 at 13:29:53:
W.I.Lenin: "The best way to discredit a reasonable idea is to carry it to excess."

This is something I often remember when reading  posts in fora.

Pity he tried proving it Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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