(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › French › Winawer › C18: Armenian Variation?
(Moderators: Smyslov_Fan, proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Armenian Variation? (Read 23379 times)
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #22 - 03/27/12 at 13:51:56
Post Tools
[quote author=4475666E604271666974070 link=1330492806/21#21 date=1332849526]Is there a black-oriented book on the French which bases a repertoire around this line? Think I'd like to give it a whirl myself...[/quote]

I've never heard of a book recommending it, but given the current book flood in the French there may be someone writing it right now.

White seems to  be safely better in most/all lines that involve a Nc3-b5, so keeping the bishop is probably worse than ...Bxc3 bxc3 and then letting White's Q hoover up the kingside pawns. Though even that line feels a bit doubtful to me, - it's perhaps theoretically okay but Black's margins are pretty narrow...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #21 - 03/27/12 at 11:58:46
Post Tools
Is there a black-oriented book on the French which bases a repertoire around this line? Think I'd like to give it a whirl myself...
  
"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
FacebookTwitterYouTube  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #20 - 03/24/12 at 01:58:53
Post Tools
The deadly line is the one where White's pawn reaches a6. I tried defending it in a cc game without success.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #19 - 03/22/12 at 10:02:24
Post Tools
Its got rather less attention with the Qg4 stuff seeming so good, but it looks like 8 ..Bd7 with 9 Nf3 Bxb5 10 Bxb5+ Nd7 11 f5 not so fatal as it seemed to briefly look a bit back, and both the update from Rendle/Mosalenko seemingly suggesting 10.. Nc6 as better anyway. So 9 Nxc7+ etc maybe main?

Khalifman does seem to think white 'obtains a slight positional edge' so its definetly worth looking at. The Qg4 stuff is all very random indeed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mtal
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 225
Joined: 05/15/07
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #18 - 03/22/12 at 03:06:02
Post Tools
I was wondering about the 6 b4 cd 7 Nb5 Bc7 8 f4 line. What's blacks latest plan against it. I looked at it few years ago and it looked like black was just hanging on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #17 - 03/03/12 at 09:43:04
Post Tools
In terms of books, not especially. The Mosalenko Winaver book has a shortish chapter, Khalifman a fair bit of stuff if a white repitoire book of course.

Or the main site here of course - and we even got a non trivial update just today from Rendle Smiley 

Seems that 16 Qg7 is likely a non trivial problem but 15.. d4 after 13 a6 o-o-o 14 ab+ Kb8 15 Qd3 stuff might still be a mess. And 11.. Qxa5 seemingly just not explored in terms of games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #16 - 03/02/12 at 00:12:20
Post Tools
Khalifman played the Armenian himself several times in the year 2000 vs some big names and scored quite reasonably, so it's probably not much worse than the poisoned pawn variation. 

The big problem is probably that Black is committed to a non-compromising fight for the rest of the game, while the Bxc3 line offers plenty of sound positional alternatives as well.

Are there any more recent sources on 5...Ba5 since Psakhis books? Any NiC YB articles perhaps?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #15 - 03/01/12 at 21:16:14
Post Tools
Don't get me wrong, I would like it if the Armenian Variation got revived. I myself have never looked at it seriously.
What's more, games like Arens-Behring make me wonder if I understand anything of chess. Why 14.Be3 ? Shouldn't that Queen get back to d3? Why 17.Rhb1? Isn't the passed h-pawn White's main trump?
I feel more attracted to 7.Qg4 Nf5 these days. Maybe I'm just getting old.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #14 - 03/01/12 at 18:28:01
Post Tools
There is certainly that sort of impression - like 10... Nd7 11 f4 and 16 Qg7 not having had any tests when Khalifman recommended them as his main moves.

Of course it might just be bad in some sense, but you do remember things like the poisoned pawn proper spending a decade or two being 'refuted' Wink 

This is Psahkis on it: "innordinately difficult for me to analyse." He wasn't sure if there was an advantage or not either, although that was of course a bit ago now.

11 Nf3 is the even 'sane' line from white here. 11 f4 is considerably sharper.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #13 - 03/01/12 at 17:32:55
Post Tools
[quote author=0E0D21430 link=1330492806/12#12 date=1330621244]Moskalenko is an insider, but he recommends against the Armenian. Volokitin played 14.axb7+ and after Kb8 15.Qd3 Rg4 16.g3 (iso 16.Bg3) preventing the check with the Rook on e4.
After 11...Qxa5 12.Ng5 Rf8 Moskalenko recommends 13.Be2 Nxe5 14.O-O "for his pawn White will enjoy a dangerous initiative".[/quote]

Well, I'm no expert on the Winawer but my impression is that the whole variation is rather neglected theoretically and in practice - so it could be a very good weapon for a player who is prepared to spend a few months on the games with some engine help. (I'm almost tempted myself! ;) 

Moskalenko's recommended 13.Be2 has apparently only been played three times, which seems a bit skimpy for a critical line - and at least to me, it's not obvious that Black should take pawn-e5, as it increases the scope of White's darkfielder a lot.

[pgn][Event "corr"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Arens, Herbert"]
[Black "Behling, Helmut"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]
[BlackElo "2405"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "1992.??.??"]
[EventType "corr"]
[Source "Opening Master"]
[SourceDate "2011.01.03"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Ne7 8. bxa5
dxc3 9. Qxg7 Rg8 10. Qxh7 Nbc6 11. Nf3 Qxa5 12. Ng5 Rf8 13. Be2 Nd4 (13... Qc7
14. f4 Nd4 15. Bd3 Qc5 16. a4 Ndc6 17. Qh3 Kd7 18. Be3 d4 19. Ne4 Qa5 20. Bf2
Kc7 21. Nd6 a6 22. O-O Nd5 23. Rfb1 Nxf4 24. Qh6 Qxe5 25. Nb5+ axb5 26. Qxf8 b4
27. Bg3 Qf6 28. Rf1 e5 29. Rae1 Qd8 30. Qxd8+ Kxd8 31. Bxf4 exf4 32. Rxf4 Bd7
33. h4 Rxa4 34. h5 Be6 35. h6 Kc7 36. h7 Ra8 37. Rxe6 fxe6 38. Rg4 Rh8 39. Rg7+
{1-0 García Ramírez,C (2016)-Santos Etxepare,A (2283)/ICCF 2010}) (13... Nxe5
14. Qg7 N5g6 15. Bd3 d4 16. Nh7 Qe5+ 17. Qxe5 Nxe5 18. Bb5+ Bd7 19. Bxd7+ Kxd7
20. Nxf8+ Rxf8 21. Ke2 Nd5 22. h4 b5 23. Rb1 Kc6 24. Rd1 Kc5 25. Rh1 a5 26. h5
Nf6 27. Bg5 Nd5 28. h6 Ng6 29. g3 e5 30. f3 f5 31. h7 e4 32. fxe4 fxe4 33. Rbf1
Rh8 34. Bf6 Kc4 35. Bxh8 d3+ 36. Ke1 Ne3 37. cxd3+ exd3 38. Bxc3 Kxc3 39. Rf3
Nc2+ 40. Kf2 Nd4 41. Rf6 Nh8 42. Rf8 Ng6 43. Rg8 Ne5 44. h8=Q {1-0 Vinardell
Cruanas,S (2061)-Gonzalez Vericat,S (2229)/Figueres ESP 2011/The Week in Chess
876}) 14. Be3 Nxe2 15. Kxe2 Nf5 16. a4 Bd7 17. Rhb1 Nxe3 18. Nxf7 Qa6+ 19. Kxe3
Rxf7 20. Qg8+ Rf8 21. Qg6+ Kd8 22. Rb4 b5 23. Qd3 Qb6+ 24. Ke2 Qc5 25. Rab1 a5
0-1

[/pgn]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #12 - 03/01/12 at 17:00:44
Post Tools
Moskalenko is an insider, but he recommends against the Armenian. Volokitin played 14.axb7+ and after Kb8 15.Qd3 Rg4 16.g3 (iso 16.Bg3) preventing the check with the Rook on e4.
After 11...Qxa5 12.Ng5 Rf8 Moskalenko recommends 13.Be2 Nxe5 14.O-O "for his pawn White will enjoy a dangerous initiative".
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #11 - 03/01/12 at 11:42:34
Post Tools
I did a quick check, both over 2200 last ten years and Black seems to score okay - especially if a draw in undesirable I'd go for Ba5, though I've never really liked the Winawer from either side...

Anyway, this variation would probably be much more popular if there was a good book by an insider recommending it. Generally, the play looks interesting and if White is required to allow such chaotic positions it would be a nice option vs solid players who wouldn't snatch pawn-g7 in the usual Bxc3 lines...

A couple of nice looking recent games I found in the search mentioned above.

[pgn][Event "Botvinnik 100th Open"]
[Site "St Petersburg RUS"]
[Date "2011.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Savchenko, B."]
[Black "Sichinava, Z."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C17"]
[WhiteElo "2615"]
[BlackElo "2364"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[EventDate "2011.08.12"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2011.08.22"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Ba5 6. b4 cxd4 7. Qg4 Ne7 8. bxa5
dxc3 9. Qxg7 Rg8 10. Qxh7 Nbc6 11. Nf3 Qxa5 (11... Qc7 12. Bf4 Bd7 13. a6 O-O-O
14. Qd3 Rg4 15. Bg3 Re4+ 16. Kd1 Na5 17. axb7+ Kb8 18. Be2 Nf5 19. Re1 Qc5 20.
Rb1 Ba4 21. Qa6 Qxa3 22. Bb5 Qa2 23. Rc1 Bxc2+ 24. Rxc2 Qb1+ 25. Rc1 c2+ {
0-1 Najer,E (2637)-Korobov,A (2671)/Czech Republic CZE 2011/The Week in Chess
883}) 12. Ng5 Rf8 13. f4 Bd7 14. Bd3 Nb4 15. axb4 Qxa1 16. Kf2 Qa4 17. Qg7 Qxb4
18. Nh7 Nc6 19. h4 Qc5+ 20. Ke2 Nd4+ 21. Kd1 Bb5 22. Bxb5+ Nxb5 23. Nxf8 Qxf8
24. Qg3 a5 25. h5 a4 26. h6 a3 27. h7 a2 28. Qd3 O-O-O 29. Qxb5 a1=Q 30. h8=Q
Qxh8 31. Qc5+ Kb8 32. Rxh8 Rxh8 33. Qg1 Qb1 34. g4 d4 35. Qf1 Rh2 0-1

[/pgn]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #10 - 03/01/12 at 10:10:24
Post Tools
16.Qg7 is the problematic line - if Black could get the position given by Martin C above where he gets in ...Rxf3 I'd be playing this line all the time. Not saying its clearly favourable to Black but I like the looks of it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #9 - 03/01/12 at 09:46:00
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/29/12 at 21:35:08:
This is where I definitely prefer ECO codes.

I can't remember ECO codes; I only know two or three. You could also have looked up that Volokitin-Lputian game I mentioned in my first post. So that "definitely" is very "personally", something you without any doubt know.  Wink

That 6.Bd2 did prove to be a problem in Sokolov-Vaganian, Minsk 1986. Moreover White may try 9.Nd6+ Kf8 10.O-O-O.

16.Qg7, given by MartinC in a note, lead to a white win in Stellwagen-Bartel, DEU 2006.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C18: Armenian Variation?
Reply #8 - 02/29/12 at 23:36:53
Post Tools
And in the spirit of concrete lines:
6 Bd2 Nc6 7 Nb5 Bxd2+ 8 Qxd2 Nxd4 9 NxN PxN 10 QxN etc really isn't a problem. Small edge at most and very solid.

6 b4 cd 7 Nb5 Bc7 8 f4 etc is a bit difficult/ unusual but quite positional and seems to be plausibly ok for either colour. 'Slight positional edge' is how Khalifman sums it up.

The existential threat is the line(s) below. From Khalifman, not sure if any subsequent movement:


That final position has seemingly seen some Rendle games, and probably others. Looks terrifying for both colours to me! Perhaps it doesn't quite hold together vs super accurate computer defence. Or maybe 16 Qg7 is more of a problem. Wouldn't dare to say.

There are naturally some plausible enough early deviations for black here - like 10.. Nd7 where Khalifman recommended  the basically untested 11 f4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge