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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 98942 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #183 - 03/27/12 at 06:51:21
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Markovich wrote on 03/27/12 at 04:02:38:
Frankly I never met the chess stdent who failed to prosper rapidly due to anything having to do with the opening.



What? What was the point of all that then?
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Markovich
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #182 - 03/27/12 at 04:02:38
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Frankly I never met the chess stdent who failed to prosper rapidly due to anything having to do with the opening. Failure to prosper most typically results from lack of commitment, lack of enthusiasm. not taking responsibility for failure, and very often, from insufficient fighting qualities. It happens that some people not really cut out for serious chess are attracted to it, often for social reasons or because of parental pressure.

A change of openings would be one of the last remedies I would propose for a student not doing well with classical methods. I had one promising student who went four tournaments in a row without scoring so much as a half point. His parents said, "When will Johnny start winning?" and I said, "When he gets tired of losing." This statment proved to be correct and the boy, with more application, started to do well again.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Göran
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #181 - 03/26/12 at 23:24:48
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I totally agree with Stigma and Paddy.

@Paddy
If your post is a reply to my humble question I think you are trying to open already opened doors and answering a question that never was asked.

I do understand that the novice's need to know a lot of basics e.g. visualisation, tactics, middle game positions, end games and so on. 

I actually said that I appreciated the need of playing open games. Actually in another post I quoted Réti on this. 

Please let me give another example: 
When I was studying mathematics at the university I was very interested in Abstract Algebra long before I had studied the basics. The professor encouraged me but also tought me the basics I needed to better understand the Abstract Algebra.
He never told me ”Hey Göran this is far too complex for you. Just forget it and first learn ….” 

Listening (reading) to people here I hear a lot of ”complexity” (without any explanation of what they mean) together with a lot of do not's.   

I hope more ”chess coaches” would be like my professor in mathematics
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #180 - 03/26/12 at 23:14:21
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I agree completely with Paddy! His choice of references is excellent too!
  
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Stigma
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #179 - 03/26/12 at 22:40:27
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kylemeister wrote on 03/26/12 at 21:59:06:
It's hard to play the Botvinnik System (or an English with Rb1 and b4) against e.g. various lines involving an early ...d5.  "Almost everything" here seems to mean "primarily ...g6 setups."


That's true of course. Probaby you need to know 3 or 4 different setups to have a complete repertoire. But a low-rated c4 player who specializes in either the Botvinnik setup or plans with Rb1-b4 will get it often and against opponents who understand the position poorly. If we're talking about near-beginner level, lines with ...e5, ...Nc6 and ...Bc5 (typical "scholastic chess") dominate along with the King's Indiain/reversed Closed Siciilian lines. 

Thus the problem I wanted to point out that short-term improvement in results can be the enemy of long-term improvement.

I'm with Paddy when he says that a student who shows no improvement with tactical/open openings for a couple of years should be allowed to try other things if they want, to at least keep them in the game. But I think flank openings are one possible solution to this dilemma. What matters in practice is whether you understand an opening at least somewhat better than your typical opponent, not how sophisticated it "really" is on master level. And even many people above 2000 are much better prepared for their pet lines against 1.e4 and 1.d4 than for the others.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Paddy
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #178 - 03/26/12 at 22:12:26
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Göran wrote on 03/26/12 at 18:03:01:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/26/12 at 00:14:41:

... I don't think 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 are particularly good openings for new players. They both require knowledge of complex opening systems that would detract from the beginner's development
...


I do agree with most of what you are saying Smyslov_Fan and my post is not aimed at your post but -

In this type of discussions I often see this kind of statement. I don't really understand what is meant by that.

Do you think of a 1500 rated playing 1.Nf3 against a 2300 rated? In that case I do agree. Even if you had made the same statement about any open position I would have agreed.

Do you mean a 1500 rated playing against a 1500 rated? In that case I don't understand a word of what is said. Unless it is implied that a 1500 rated do understand the complexity better when playing Black?!

I would guess that you most often play against the same level of knowledge as you possess yourself and probably have the same understanding as your opponent. Why then require a huge understanding of complexity (I don't really understand that statement either. I myself actually think that open positions are much more complex than closed) when playing White??

I do appreciate that playing open positions to get a feeling for the pieces is important. It is the "complexity" issue I don't really understand.


I would bet good money any day on a 1500-junior raised on a Markovich-type  diet of open games, classical opening principles, simple direct plans, lots of tactics practice and a good foundation of basic endgame knowledge, against an average non-Markovich-trained 1500 who opens with 1 c4 or 1 Nf3. 

There is a useful distinction to be made between tactical complexity and strategic complexity. Open games (other then the Ruy Lopez) tend to be tactically complex from quite an early stage. Closed games and Flank Openings tend to postpone the crisis of the game and can give a player the illusion that they are playing decent chess, because they don't lose so quickly! But the loser probably did not understand the position very well, which eventually led to a bad position and a final tactical debacle. I have lost count of the times I have suggested a post-mortem, only to be answered with “no thanks, I know where I went wrong”. I grit my teeth and bite my tongue, suppressing the urge to say “no, you don’t, not really!”.

Tactical skill is so fundamental that it is entirely logical for a coach to prioritize it – in fact anything else is just irresponsible. And one way to do this is to encourage the playing of open games and gambits. It’s not the only way (as I’ve written earlier in this thread), but it’s the most logical way and IMHO should always be tried first. (It almost breaks my heart to attend junior events and see novices wheeling out Flank Openings or Closed Openings.)

It’s no use anyone citing primarily positional players such as Capablanca, Nimzowitsch, Petrosian or Karpov as counter-examples – the fact is that these were all tactical monsters!

Some more "scripture" to add to my earlier collection of quotations:

"If the beginner does not belong to the combinative type then, before anything else, he must learn to combine. (...) we are convinced that the late Schlechter was right in maintaining that every combinative player can become a master of the first category if things are arranged properly." Nimzowitsch, "How I became a grandmaster"

“A season or two of playing open games is an essential stage in the development of anybody who aspires to all-round and to international ability; one should study these openings before going on to the more fashionable defences and closed games.” Leonard Barden and Tim Harding in “The Batsford Guide to Chess Openings”.

There is another issue though. For a conscientious coach, older players who have stalled at a lowish level, or juniors who do not seem to have benefited from a season or two of a Markovich-type regime present a particular problem. If we want these to keep playing our wonderful game, we need to try to protect them from early problems and enable them to survive to reach a middlegame, so for these a repertoire of solid system-type openings can be appropriate. But that does not mean sophisticated, flexible openings such as the Catalan, Reti or the English.

“The English is in many respects similar to Reti’s. Both are openings which derive their strength largely from transposition possibilities. Both involve complicated positional motifs where knowledge and good judgement are equally essential.” I think these words are as true today as when GM Reuben Fine wrote them in 1943.

So far I’ve quoted the “old guys”. For modern corroboration, I recommend GM Nigel Davies’s recent article 'Appropriate Opening Choices' at http://chessimprover.com/?p=391

and for a much fuller discussion, Chapter 9 'Choosing and Preparing Openings' in Volume 4 of IM John Watson's 'Mastering the Chess Openings' series.
« Last Edit: 03/27/12 at 01:19:42 by Paddy »  
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kylemeister
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #177 - 03/26/12 at 21:59:06
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It's hard to play the Botvinnik System (or an English with Rb1 and b4) against e.g. various lines involving an early ...d5.  "Almost everything" here seems to mean "primarily ...g6 setups."
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #176 - 03/26/12 at 20:45:15
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Flank openings are tricky from a coaching perspective. The main and relevent reason not to recommend them for children and/or really ambitious adults below 1500 (1800? 2000?) is simply that those players should play and master more tactical positions. 

But I don't buy the argument that flank openings are so much more complex. You can easly build a repertoire around either 1.c4, 2.Nf3, 3.g3, 4.Bg2 and then either b3/Bb2 or preparing b4 with Rb1 and if necessary a3, or the Botvinnik System (a la The Dynamic English) against almost everything. The basic ideas of both these repertoires can be explained in half an hour.

Furthermore, Black players on lower levels don't have a clue what to do against flank openings! So anyone who takes them up early is in real "danger" of getting excellent results with them and sticking to them (maybe exclusively) for years, thus missing out on playing experience with open, tactical positions that would have helped them in the long run.

So for these players 1.c4 is good for short-term results, but bad for long-term improvement!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #175 - 03/26/12 at 20:11:12
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Sorry, but I still think the explanations are more complex than the openings 1.Nf3 and 1.c4.

  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #174 - 03/26/12 at 20:04:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/26/12 at 19:33:15:


Regarding Markovich's comment, 
Quote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why one point of view is "doctrinaire" and the opposing point of view is not doctrinaire.  I have a point of view that I have maintained here strongly. ...


What makes Markovich's "point of view" doctrinaire is that straying from the straight path is viewed as "opposing" it. I agree with much of what Markovich says, but I don't adhere to the straight and narrow path. The word "doctrine" implies a single best path.


I don't think it correctly characterizes my "'point of view'" to say that I propose a "straight and narrow path."  I advocate that young and developing players try as much as possible to play into open positions where piece play and good tactics are at a premium, up until the point where they can sometimes knock off Masters.  I don't even say that sometimes playing the French or the KID is bad necessarily, only that if you can't sometimes knock off Masters in open positions, you're not ready to specialize in non-open systems. 

I admit that I do strongly advocate the Two Knights, but I wouldn't insist on it.  You can play some nice open games in a Petroff.

I'm not going to debate any more about whether my point of view, which is not a pseudo point of view deserving to be held off in quotation marks, is doctrinaire.  But I nevertheless think that that term is being applied unfairly.

I do think it would have been polite to reply in second person, as well.
« Last Edit: 03/26/12 at 21:24:44 by Markovich »  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #173 - 03/26/12 at 19:33:15
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Agreed, MartinC. 

In order to play 1.c4 well, one has to know certain positions from QGD theory. By well, I don't mean +2300 level, but at the common-sense level. If 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6, white should be able to play the King's Indian. That alone is a very complex system. If you want to teach the beginning player to avoid the KID, you will have to explain why controlling the center with d4 isn't a good idea for that player. Then what do you recommend against 1.c4 c6? Again, the most obvious moves (2.e4 or 2.d4) will also have to be explained away or studied. You may as well play 1.d4 or 1.e4!

It's just far too complex because it requires a knowledge of a variety of systems that either rely on 1.d4/e4  variations or avoids them for a much more murky pedagogical purpose.

Regarding Markovich's comment, 
Quote:
Maybe someone can explain to me why one point of view is "doctrinaire" and the opposing point of view is not doctrinaire.  I have a point of view that I have maintained here strongly. ...


What makes Markovich's "point of view" doctrinaire is that straying from the straight path is viewed as "opposing" it. I agree with much of what Markovich says, but I don't adhere to the straight and narrow path. The word "doctrine" implies a single best path.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #172 - 03/26/12 at 19:07:24
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The complexity he was talking about was the amount of baggage needed to start playing the lines sensibly, as compared to that needed for more straightforward stuff.

Early on you want to minimise that to allow concentration on the actual play.

Otherwise sure Smiley Although there are some lines which really aren't rational for one or the other side at low levels - say ones which allow activity for a better structure, where the technique isn't there to convert the long term advantage.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #171 - 03/26/12 at 18:03:01
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/26/12 at 00:14:41:

... I don't think 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 are particularly good openings for new players. They both require knowledge of complex opening systems that would detract from the beginner's development
...



I do agree with most of what you are saying Smyslov_Fan and my post is not aimed at your post but -

In this type of discussions I often see this kind of statement. I don't really understand what is ment by that.

Do you think of a 1500 rated playing 1.Nf3 against a 2300 rated? In that case I do agree. Even if you had made the same statement about any open position I would have agreed.

Do you mean a 1500 rated playing against a 1500 rated? In that case I don't understand a word of what is said. Unless it is implied that a 1500 rated do understand the complexity better when playing Black?!

I would guess that you most often play against the same level of knowledge as you possess yourself and probably have the same understanding as your opponent. Why then require a huge understanding of complexity (I don't really understand that statement either. I myself actually think that open positions are much more complex than closed) when playing White??

I do appreciate that playing open positions to get a feeling for the pieces is important. It is the "compexity" issue I don't really understand.
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #170 - 03/26/12 at 17:37:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/26/12 at 00:14:41:
I do teach absolute beginners to start the game with 1.e4 e5. I also teach small groups to play 1.e4 e5. So in that sense I do agree with the Markovich doctrine. I am just not as doctrinaire as he is. I don't think 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 are particularly good openings for new players. They both require knowledge of complex opening systems that would detract from the beginner's development.

Regarding teaching the Berlin: I don't like that simply because I teach the Morphy system (3...a6)  against the Spanish. It's a great way to show how tactics resolve opening problems. It also allows students to try out a variety of sound openings without being stuck playing a single line. 

The problem with the Spanish is the Exchange variation. But there are enough tactical situations even in the Exchange to create winnable middle games, especially at the U1600 level!


Maybe someone can explain to me why one point of view is "doctrinaire" and the opposing point of view is not doctrinaire.  I have a point of view that I have maintained here strongly.  If I was quoting it from a book, that might be considered doctrinaire.  But I have amply explained the reasons why I advocate it. 

Still I am accused of "dogmatism" and of being "doctrinaire."

I would not say that the main problems with 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 are that they miss a great chance to play 1.e4, which, for reasons I have explained, is much more educational.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #169 - 03/26/12 at 00:14:41
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I do teach absolute beginners to start the game with 1.e4 e5. I also teach small groups to play 1.e4 e5. So in that sense I do agree with the Markovich doctrine. I am just not as doctrinaire as he is. I don't think 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 are particularly good openings for new players. They both require knowledge of complex opening systems that would detract from the beginner's development.

Regarding teaching the Berlin: I don't like that simply because I teach the Morphy system (3...a6)  against the Spanish. It's a great way to show how tactics resolve opening problems. It also allows students to try out a variety of sound openings without being stuck playing a single line. 

The problem with the Spanish is the Exchange variation. But there are enough tactical situations even in the Exchange to create winnable middle games, especially at the U1600 level!
  
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