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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted? (Read 37426 times)
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #17 - 08/21/13 at 11:07:17
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 08/09/13 at 15:08:23:

Isn't 3 Bc4 virtually a forced win for White?


Looks like it is not. See here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/15


AMM wrote on 11/03/08 at 15:50:21:

4...Qg5 ("Poisoned pawn" line) was the first idea against 3.Bc4; it produces some of the most hair-raising variations known in chess. After Main Line 5.d4 Qxg2 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Bf7+ Kd8 8.Bxg6! Qxh1+(not taking the Rook has its drawbacks) 9.Ke2 and then it has been demostrated only few time ago UNIQUE correct move is 9..Qxc1 10.Nf7+ Ke8 11.Nxh8+ hxg6 12.Qxg6+ Kd8 13.Nf7+ Ke7 14.Nc3! Qxc2+ 15.Ke1 d6 16.Nd5+ Kd7 17.Qxg8 e3! 18.fxe3 Be7 etc. of Koudelka-Rosenstielke and Rouzaud-Rosenstielke both games from 5th. LG Word Ch. sf. B, cr. e-mail, 2004/05; for decades the capture 9..Qxc1 was considered dubtious, but in these games, extensively analyzed, White didn't demonstrate an absolute forced win, and in fact, both games was draw.

  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #16 - 08/09/13 at 15:08:23
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/15/12 at 11:06:12:
'Refutation' is a strong word, there are lines that are promising for White but no single refutation as far as I am aware


Isn't 3 Bc4 virtually a forced win for White?

e.g. 3...fxe4 (3...d6 4. d4 exd4 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. 0-0 Nc6 7. exf5 Bxf5 8. Re1+ Kd7 9. Be6+ Bxe6 10. Nxe6 Qh4 11. Bxh6 gxh6 12. Qf3) 4. Nxe5 d5 (4...Qg5 5. d4 Qxg2 6. Qh5+ g6 7. Bf7+ Kd8 8. Bxg6 Qxh1+ 9. Ke2) 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 Nf6 7. Qe5+ Be7 8. Bb5+ c6 9. Nxe7 Qxe7 10. Qxe7+ Kxe7 11. Bf1! and what does Black really have here?
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #15 - 04/15/12 at 12:05:42
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/15/12 at 11:06:12:
but no single refutation as far as I am aware

IM Silman seems to disagree:

http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/040223_more_splat_the_lat.html

That analysis has been expanded (and the evaluation confirmed) in that long thread on the Latvian (with all those excellent contributions of AMM and several others).

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262014233/0#0
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #14 - 04/15/12 at 11:06:12
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kshorg wrote on 03/17/12 at 13:39:54:
I heard about a refutation of this gambit. What is the line?

'Refutation' is a strong word, there are lines that are promising for White but no single refutation as far as I am aware - if there was then there wouldn't be much point holding the LG World Championship ... as White would win every game!
The LG is still a reasonable opening OTB if you are happy with the typical positions that arise.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #13 - 04/15/12 at 00:00:55
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Uhhh...yeah. Mr. Karpov once lost as white to 1.e4 a6. This does not make 1...a6 the best thing after sliced bread. Do you have a point? If not, then please stop that "my cat beat Kasparov's dog with the Buzumbura Gambit" sort of thing. Either give concrete variations, or let it die... it deserves it.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #12 - 04/09/12 at 13:42:03
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No, it is not. He beats masters with his opening. In 2002, he beat GM Maurice Ashley!
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #11 - 04/09/12 at 06:47:32
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Gambit wrote on 04/09/12 at 00:37:24:
Really? Then explain how NM James West consistently wins with the Philidor Counter Gambit?


Because he plays it against patzers could be a reasonable explanation, no?
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #10 - 04/09/12 at 06:27:05
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6. Nxe5 doesn't seem so clear to me. Maybe this is also fine for white, but it's not really clear-cut. Neg5 though seems just terrible for Black. 'Gambit' mentioned exd4 and Qe7 in response, but this is just a clear advantage for white - you don't really need any analysis on this position even. Black is just some tempi down in a wide open position.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #9 - 04/09/12 at 00:37:24
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Really? Then explain how NM James West consistently wins with the Philidor Counter Gambit?

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Nc3 fxe4  and now:

A. 5 Nxe4 d5 6 Nxe5  dxe4 7 Qh5+ g6 8 Nxg6 hxg6 9 Qg6+ Kd7 10 Qf5+ Ke8 11 Qe5+ Be6! 12 Qxe6+ Ne7 13 Qxe4 Nbc6 14 Bb5 Qd6 15 Bxc6+ bxc6 16 h3 Bg7 17 c3 Rb8 with compensation for the sacrificed material, James West, The Dynamic Philidor Conuter Gambit, 2nd edition, 1996, pp.72 - 73.

    8...Nf6 9 Qe5+ Kf7 10 Nxh8+ Kg7! 11 Bg5 Nc6! 12 Qg3 Kxh8 13 d5 Nb4 14 000 Be7 15 a3 Na6 16 Ba6 bxa6 17 Rhe1 Rb8 and 0-1/27, McDonnell-West, Somerset, 1993.

I will post more games and analyses later here.

West counters 6 Ng5  with 6...ed4 and 7...Qe7.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #8 - 04/07/12 at 19:52:23
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Side comment:  seeing people trying to defend things like 5...d5, 5...Nf6 6. Nxf6+ gf, or some Latvian lines which have come up before in which Black was a pawn down for approximately nothing, somehow put me in mind of an article about American politician Lowell Weicker.  It commented that at some point Weicker decided to devote himself to liberal Republicanism, "which is rather like deciding to become a whooping crane."
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #7 - 04/07/12 at 19:09:36
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Gambit wrote on 04/07/12 at 17:40:17:
James West has analyzed the PCG line you mention, AMM. He does not play 5...Nf6! but rather, 5...d5 instead. It leads to very complicated play.

So when is the LG tournament starting?


Excuse me, but 5...d5 is losing in two different ways (6.Nxe5 and 6.Neg5) while 5...Nf6 6.Nxf6+ gf6 7.Be3(!) is the torture I mentioned before: Black is not losing by force, but his position is plain miserable. Only people with strong SM tendencies would like to defend that as Black.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #6 - 04/07/12 at 17:40:17
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James West has analyzed the PCG line you mention, AMM. He does not play 5...Nf6! but rather, 5...d5 instead. It leads to very complicated play.

So when is the LG tournament starting?
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #5 - 04/06/12 at 21:47:14
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PANFR wrote on 04/06/12 at 17:45:57:
Isn't the simple 3.Nc3 a large advantage for White?


Personally I think 3.Nc3 is a relative innocuous move. If White wants any refuting line on LG, he should to play 3.Nxe5.

An answer vs. 3.Nc3 d6 4.d4 ( trasposition to Philidor Countergambit ) 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6! 6.Nxf6+ gxf6!, but not 5..d5?! 6.Neg5 or 6.Ne5!?
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #4 - 04/06/12 at 17:45:57
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Isn't the simple 3.Nc3 a large advantage for White?
3...d6 4.d4 is a well-known (from the Philidor move order) torture machine.
3...Nc6 3.d4 is even worse.
3...Nf6 4.ef5 e5 5.Ng5 d5 6.d3 and here Costen in his old book suggests 6...Bb4 7.de4 Qe7, but isn't white just winning after 8.Be2?
3...fe4 4.Nxe5 Qf6 (4...Nf6 5.Ng4!) 5.d4 (of course there's also 4.Nc4 which transposes) ed3 6.Nxd3! and now 6...c6 7.Qe2+ Be7 8.Ne4!? white is just better.
  
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Re: C40: Latvian Gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5!? refuted?
Reply #3 - 03/17/12 at 14:43:06
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Objectively, (3.Nxe5) Qf6 must be better than 3...Nf6. What makes 3...Nf6 interesting is that the natural reply 4.exf5, recommended in the great majority of LG sources, gives White only equality.
  
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