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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6 (Read 19015 times)
MartinC
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #20 - 03/25/12 at 20:38:52
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Got to be realistic though - yes this sort of thing might be somehow acceptable to play as black vs very critical play from white. But as an option against something like the KIA? Goodness no.
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #19 - 03/25/12 at 19:09:36
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Bibs, don´t get me wrong, in general I like Whites game after 9.c4. I just don´t think 9... dxc4 is worse than 9... Nb6 or 9... d4. At least Whites practical results have been excellent whatever Black plays.

The line we discuss here is certainly not attractive for Black unless he is happy with grinding out a draw. I just don´t want to allow my opponents going into a drawn endgame without much trouble. That is certainly possible here with your suggestions.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #18 - 03/25/12 at 12:23:40
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Fllg wrote on 03/25/12 at 10:00:39:
15.b4 is an idea but Black may avoid this by playing 14... a5 instead of Rd8. Even Houdini doesn´t see anything better than transposing back to the game here with 15.Nf3 d3 16.Qf1 Rd8.

Probably White has to look for an improvement earlier. Perhaps 14.Ne4 or even earlier 12.Bf4/12.Nd2 is worth a look.

But it doesn´t seem as if White has a significant advantage here.


We can agree to disagree, but black is dropping a pawn. Would Moskalenko hold against me, some 300 points his junior? Mebbe, but he'd have had better days at the office.

Would play 14 b3 myself, so I had a look at that in H.
Not H's first choice, but computers need some guidance as well as just switching on. A sample line:
15 b3 Rd8
16 Bb2 Qc7
17 Nf3 d3
18 Qe3 b6
19 Ne1 ...





  
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Fllg
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #17 - 03/25/12 at 10:00:39
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15.b4 is an idea but Black may avoid this by playing 14... a5 instead of Rd8. Even Houdini doesn´t see anything better than transposing back to the game here with 15.Nf3 d3 16.Qf1 Rd8.

Probably White has to look for an improvement earlier. Perhaps 14.Ne4 or even earlier 12.Bf4/12.Nd2 is worth a look.

But it doesn´t seem as if White has a significant advantage here.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #16 - 03/24/12 at 07:47:54
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That cited game seemed to smell a bit for black.
Plugged in, hey presto, Houdini pipes up with: 
15 b4(!) (idea ...Na4, 16 Ne4)
instead of 15Nf3. 
With significant advantage (I certainly count anything more than +0.5 as significant, horizons aside).
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #15 - 03/23/12 at 05:32:59
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True, but to me the question is if White has any theoretical advantage here. Despite beeing a pawn down the Endposition of this game looks like a comfortable draw and if White is able to get any advantage in this line it seems to be very small. 

Black has not much chances to go wrong here and the line looks playable if he is satisfied with a draw.
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #14 - 03/22/12 at 22:17:16
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Fllg wrote on 03/22/12 at 19:41:07:
RdC wrote on 03/19/12 at 20:40:55:
White takes and then plays against the isolated pawn on d4. Relatively few games, but a really good score for white.


The score is indeed quite good for White but still Moskalenko claims the d-pawn to be strong and the position to be equal after "11.Nxd4 cxd4 12. Rd1 Qb6! 13. Nd2 Nc5" citing his rapidgame against Sibarowski from 1997. I wasn´t able to find the further score but there is another game in Megabase by Moskalenko in this line which ended in a draw:




Hmm, Moskalenko a pawn down for most of the game and drawing against a player 300 ELO lower does not look nice for Black  Huh
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #13 - 03/22/12 at 19:41:07
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RdC wrote on 03/19/12 at 20:40:55:
White takes and then plays against the isolated pawn on d4. Relatively few games, but a really good score for white.


The score is indeed quite good for White but still Moskalenko claims the d-pawn to be strong and the position to be equal after "11.Nxd4 cxd4 12. Rd1 Qb6! 13. Nd2 Nc5" citing his rapidgame against Sibarowski from 1997. I wasn´t able to find the further score but there is another game in Megabase by Moskalenko in this line which ended in a draw:

  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #12 - 03/19/12 at 20:40:55
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parisestmagique wrote on 03/19/12 at 15:27:38:
Regarding the main line after 9.c4 Moskalenko in "The Flexible French" offers 9... dxc4 (dismissed with "?!" by Jones) 10.dxc4 Nd4! as leading to equality. This last move isn´t mentioned by Jones.


White takes and then plays against the isolated pawn on d4. Relatively few games, but a really good score for white.

kylemeister wrote on 03/19/12 at 18:03:33:
I notice that Gawain's coverage of early ...b5 involves citing a game Smirin-Popov, though it looks like this could readily be reached in the old main line if White were to play an unusual Qe2 at some point.


If as White, you want to avoid the old lines, you have probably got to try c3 or perhaps a4 to avoid the transpositions.

You could also play 7 e5 Nd7 8 c4 instead of 7 0-0. That might even be a better move order to avoid the possibility of 7 0-0 b5.

  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #11 - 03/19/12 at 19:58:56
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parisestmagique wrote on 03/19/12 at 15:27:38:
Dear Bibs, maybe i was not clear, i dont see how White can get this position : 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d3 d5 (Nc6!) 4 Qe2 Nf6 5 g3 Be7 6 Bg2 Nc6 7 0-0 0-0 8 e5 Nd7 9 c4  if Black is clever, can you give the line of the book ?


After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 Nc6 4.g3 g6 5.Bg5!? is interesting and recommended by Jones. Black may try to avoid this with 4... Nge7 intending to play ... g6 next move, which of course is also covered by Jones.

Regarding the main line after 9.c4 Moskalenko in "The Flexible French" offers 9... dxc4 (dismissed with "?!" by Jones) 10.dxc4 Nd4! as leading to equality. This last move isn´t mentioned by Jones.
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #10 - 03/19/12 at 18:03:33
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I notice that Gawain's coverage of early ...b5 involves citing a game Smirin-Popov, though it looks like this could readily be reached in the old main line if White were to play an unusual Qe2 at some point.
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #9 - 03/19/12 at 16:58:53
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It will always be possible for Black to avoid the tabiya position with an exchange variation .. dxe4 or possibly a very early ..b5.

White doesn't play Qe2 until needed. So you wait for .. d5 to be played. In the Fischer form of the line, you played N1d2 and then Re1 to defend the e5 pawn. In the Qe2 system you save a move by leaving the knight on b1, so giving time to sneak in c4 before Black plays b5. 

I'm not sure it works as well in a true French. You can play 1 e4 e6 2 d3 d5 3 Qe2, but then Black has exchange variation possibilities by taking on e4 and then trying ideas like .. b6 to threaten .. Ba6.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #8 - 03/19/12 at 15:27:38
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Dear Bibs, maybe i was not clear, i dont see how White can get this position : 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d3 d5 (Nc6!) 4 Qe2 Nf6 5 g3 Be7 6 Bg2 Nc6 7 0-0 0-0 8 e5 Nd7 9 c4  if Black is clever, can you give the line of the book ?
  
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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #7 - 03/19/12 at 13:29:16
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Which of the books mentioned so far?
  

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Re: Sicilian KIA against 2 .. e6
Reply #6 - 03/19/12 at 11:35:56
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parisestmagique wrote on 03/19/12 at 09:53:47:
I think that Black has a better move order : 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 Nc6 and 4.Qe2?! g6 or 4.g3 g6. In the French 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5!? or 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 Nc6!? we dont enter the line.


Obviously not 4Qe2 in your first line. 
In sicilian 2...e6 lines, Qe2 occurs after d5.
Get the book, it is a very good one.

All this is covered.

  
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