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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy (Read 41998 times)
Göran
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #40 - 04/04/12 at 12:41:10
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Why not present a number of openings  (on proper level and not all at once) and see what opening(s) he/she likes best to play?
  

What kind of proof is that?
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MNb
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #39 - 04/03/12 at 11:38:25
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In addition: purchase Alterman's the Gambit Guide for White. It avoid exactly what S_F warns against: offering a complete repertoire, but does what you need - presents tons of interesting tactical games.
(I'm not happy with the sections about the Morra Gambit and the French for various reasons)
  

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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #38 - 04/03/12 at 11:17:37
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TN wrote on 04/03/12 at 09:21:11:

For most children I would be reluctant to have them play the King's Gambit because it could train the bad habit of them playing dubious, 'trappy' lines. However teaching them the basic ideas can only be good for their tactical vision and feel for gambit play. There is one small issue though - how do you explain to an inexperienced player that after 2...exf4, 3.Be2 is the only move that draws, and that after 3.Nf3 only 3...d6 4.Bc4 g5 5.d4 h6 wins and the main line 3...g5 4.h4! is a draw? Of course it's possible to oversimplify things and say that 3.Nf3 and 3.Bc4 are the main moves, but I don't like lying to people I teach. 

Check out the relevant thread- I think the above was probably an April Fool's joke!

Re. the Cochrane Gambit, Michael Goeller compiled a list of sources on it.  I don't think it's a bad suggestion at all at 1500 Elo standard.
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cochrane-gambit.html
  
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #37 - 04/03/12 at 10:14:45
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Three more...from the same tournament.. A half year ago!  Wink







All I can say is that I know this boy, his parents and his trainer very well.  Cool
And nowadays he's way better..  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #36 - 04/03/12 at 09:57:27
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TN wrote on 04/03/12 at 09:21:11:
As an aside, I think Vass overestimates the theoretical knowledge of his child's opponents. It's rare that you find someone below 2000 with a very solid knowledge of theory, and those who possess it tend to struggle OTB once the game leaves their book. Around 1400 level you'll see a lot of people meet 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.Bc4 with 4...h6 or 4...Bb4, for instance. 

Well, look at this one then! First player - one of the best rivals of my son http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2917173 - born the same 2004 year as my boy. We'll meet him again at the official Bulgarian Championship Boys Under 8 in Plovdiv which starts on April 6th 2012. Second player - a boy at the same age, too..   Shocked


Any opinions?  Shocked
  
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #35 - 04/03/12 at 09:21:11
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@MNb

I hadn't thought of the Cochrane; that's definitely a good line for teaching gambit play and both long-term and short-term compensation. 4.Nf3 Ne4 5.Nc3 is quite simple but definitely not as exciting  Wink

@Vass

The Four Knights doesn't have to be closed; White can play 4.d4, the Scotch Four Knights, with an open position almost by force, as I mentioned in a previous post. I think that 'too much theory' is a poor argument against teaching a young child the Scotch Game - most of the time the most played moves are the best. The Scotch Game leads to open positions but the ideas of the Scotch Gambit (for example) are a fair bit simpler. I disagree with your reason for rejecting 4.Ng5 - at a low level White only needs to know a small number of lines to be successful, but a better reason is that it requires White to defend quite accurately in most lines - while being able to defend is just as important as being able to attack, this is a much more advanced skill, and at all levels but especially when one is starting out it is much easier to attack than defend. 

Actually 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 could be a good alternative to the Scotch Gambit for a beginner, intending to meet 3...Nf6 with 4.d4 (which in fact transposes after 4...exd4), and 3...Bc5 with 4.b4 as the Evans is a good opening for teaching the basics of gambit play, rapid development and playing with the initiative. But the child only needs one good line to 1...e5 and if he's happy with the Scotch Gambit I'd definitely stick with that for now. 

@Smyslov_Fan

For most children I would be reluctant to have them play the King's Gambit because it could train the bad habit of them playing dubious, 'trappy' lines. However teaching them the basic ideas can only be good for their tactical vision and feel for gambit play. There is one small issue though - how do you explain to an inexperienced player that after 2...exf4, 3.Be2 is the only move that draws, and that after 3.Nf3 only 3...d6 4.Bc4 g5 5.d4 h6 wins and the main line 3...g5 4.h4! is a draw? Of course it's possible to oversimplify things and say that 3.Nf3 and 3.Bc4 are the main moves, but I don't like lying to people I teach. 

As an aside, I think Vass overestimates the theoretical knowledge of his child's opponents. It's rare that you find someone below 2000 with a very solid knowledge of theory, and those who possess it tend to struggle OTB once the game leaves their book. Around 1400 level you'll see a lot of people meet 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4 4.Bc4 with 4...h6 or 4...Bb4, for instance. 




  

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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #34 - 04/03/12 at 08:46:41
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Vass wrote on 04/03/12 at 07:32:31:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/03/12 at 07:11:54:
I'd encourage the 7 year old to try the King's Gambit occasionally as well as other 1.e4 lines.

Well, I thought about that, too..  Wink
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 (a good move to explain to a small boy) but then 3...Qh4+ and how to explain him we break at once the common rules for development not making a 0-0?  Shocked
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 - a move with a flank pawn before a piece development 4...g4 5.Ne5 - a move with a developped piece...and so on...
The King's Gambit is too complex for him I think. At least, for now.. Maybe on a later stage in his development?!   Roll Eyes

You can't prevent him from meeting the live. Maybe an opponent plays just this opening against him.  Wink 

As a teacher it's able to tell him when to play this is useful for his development. And Anderssen's immortal game is a beautiful lesson about complexity and difficulty of the game we like while showing the beautiful combinations arousing out of this.
  

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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #33 - 04/03/12 at 07:32:31
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/03/12 at 07:11:54:
I'd encourage the 7 year old to try the King's Gambit occasionally as well as other 1.e4 lines.

Well, I thought about that, too..  Wink
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 (a good move to explain to a small boy) but then 3...Qh4+ and how to explain him we break at once the common rules for development not making a 0-0?  Shocked
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 - a move with a flank pawn before a piece development 4...g4 5.Ne5 - a move with a developped piece...and so on...
The King's Gambit is too complex for him I think. At least, for now.. Maybe on a later stage in his development?!   Roll Eyes
  
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #32 - 04/03/12 at 07:11:54
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Again, I do not believe in teaching repertoires to 7-year olds. However, I do believe in teaching gambit play! 

I'd encourage the 7 year old to try the King's Gambit occasionally as well as other 1.e4 lines.
  
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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #31 - 04/03/12 at 06:40:08
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So, Scotch Gambit after all..  Wink
Meaning...Four Knights - too closed; Spanish - too complex; Scotch Game - too much theory (4...Bc5; 4...Nf6; 4...Bb4; even 4...Qh4); Italian with 4.d3 - too closed; Two Knights with 4.Ng5 combined with Gioco Piano - too much to remember for a small kid...and so on..
Move order: 2.d4 eliminates pure Petroff and Philidor <-> against the classic one with 2.Nf3..  Undecided Well, the boy can vary in the future.  Wink
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #30 - 04/03/12 at 06:27:44
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MNb wrote on 04/03/12 at 03:41:18:
TN wrote on 04/02/12 at 23:00:34:
Actually most lines of the Phillidor ....

After rereading I feel I have expressed myself too dogmatically. You're right.
I might add that against the Petrov also the Cochrane Gambit should be a fun choice.
Like JediKnight wrote: on that level players are quite bad defenders. Aggressive openings full of tactics, based on active piece play should net lots of points.
Most kids love that.

...And that's what keep them interested in this game.  Wink
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #29 - 04/03/12 at 03:41:18
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TN wrote on 04/02/12 at 23:00:34:
Actually most lines of the Phillidor ....

After rereading I feel I have expressed myself too dogmatically. You're right.
I might add that against the Petrov also the Cochrane Gambit should be a fun choice.
Like JediKnight wrote: on that level players are quite bad defenders. Aggressive openings full of tactics, based on active piece play should net lots of points.
Most kids love that.
  

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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #28 - 04/03/12 at 00:43:10
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It seems that there are strong arguments for and against using the standard 2.Nf3 or using 2.d4 first.
I used to play the Scotch Gambit regularly as a junior, having been introduced to it via a 2.Nf3 move-order but was unhappy at the large number of Philidor Defences that I got, and ended up having more success with the 2.d4 move-order, which resulted in a higher percentage of Scotch Gambits.  Thus with the Scotch Gambit being the basis of Vass's suggested repertoire my experiences perhaps add some weight to the argument for 2.d4.

I think if the aim is to reach a Scotch Gambit then there is a lot to be said for the move-order 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4; it depends on whether you fancy teaching him the Urusov Gambit (as White has no other good options after 3.Bc4 Nf6).  The 3.Nf3 move-order gives White the option of meeting 3...Nf6 with 4.e5 as given in Vass's original repertoire.   I should mention, though, that the Urusov quite often transposes to the Two Knights lines seen in the Scotch Gambit anyway (4...Nc6).

I mentioned 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 c5!?, actually it isn't much of a problem regarding a Scotch Gambit repertoire as White's best here is to continue in Scotch Gambit fashion with 4.Bc4 (and likewise 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4 c5 4.Nf3).  Against 4...Nf6, 5.0-0 is more effective than in the standard Scotch Gambit as 5...Nxe4?! 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 leaves Black having played ...c5 instead of ...Nc6- the difference is not in Black's favour.

I am also a supporter of MNb's suggestion of meeting 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 with 6.0-0 (I have played it numerous times with White and have been pleasantly surprised by how poorly club players tend to defend against it), but 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 should also be fine at the junior level.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #27 - 04/02/12 at 23:00:34
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Quote:
I disagree. The Philidor allows Black to keep the position closed. I would prefer 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4 though and after 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 Bc5 (or Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.c3) 5.c3 Nf6 6.O-O. The problem of Black's extra options is not urgent on a beginner's level; what matters is to open the centre.
Otherwise I agree with TN that it might be wise to wait a bit with presenting a repertoire and first focus on tactics and elementary endgames.


Actually most lines of the Phillidor (with an 1...e5 move order) lead to an open position if White chooses: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nd4 or 3...Nf6 4.de5 Ne4 5.Qd5. You're right that 3...Nd7 is difficult to get an open position against, but then after 4.Bc4 Black has to play 4...c6, and even then 5.0-0 Ngf6 6.de5 leads to a semi-open position with the bishop pair. If Black doesn't play 4...c6 then there will be a lot of fun tactics for the child to see and hopefully play!  Wink 

Like Vass said it's possible for the child to play both move orders - there's certainly nothing wrong with a bit of variety.

@Gilchrist is a legend

I think in most cases the Ruy Lopez as White is a bit too advanced for a player just starting out in tournaments. Showing some general ideas in the Ruy can be very useful for improving a child's positional understanding but Black has a large number of different options and many lines lead to a closed position without any immediate tactics. The Four Knights is an interesting suggestion since White can pretty much guarantee that an open position will arise after 4.d4. Another useful trick is 4.Bc4!?, since most kids who know of the Fork Trick believe 4...Ne4 5.Ne4 d5 6.Bd3 de4 7.Be4 Bd6 to be better for Black, but in fact White has a small edge in this position. The chances of the opponent playing the best move 6...Nb4! are quite small. However 4...Bc5 then leads to a very quiet position, so I'd still recommend the Four Knights Scotch over this 'trap'.









  

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Re: C44: White repertoire for a 7-8 year old boy
Reply #26 - 04/02/12 at 22:17:04
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If you think the Spanish Main Line is too complicated, try the Four Knights since he seems to have played this based on the games you posted, and is a simpler opening. The ideas are fairly easy, for example say about 3. Nc3: "It develops a piece and controls the centre." Then after 4. Bb5, "This move develops a piece, attacks the fulcrum of the defender of the e5-pawn, and prepares castling." Then I suppose, explain castling and d3, etc. as the plan, and to develop the pieces.
  

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