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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances? (Read 18410 times)
Nernstian59
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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #20 - 01/28/26 at 03:03:25
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I now have Beating the Winawer - The h4 Ram by Kotronias, Ivanov, and Obodchuk. When first perusing the book, I was soon reminded of TonyRo's comments in the thread about The Benko Bible Volume 1, which is also written by Kontronias and Ivanov and published by Russell Enterprises. Beating the Winawer is loaded with material including original analysis, but it's lacking in readability and organization.

The book's flaws became readily apparent when I looked more deeply at Chapter 3, which covers what the authors call the "Main Line". This and all other chapters are centered around a single game, the moves of which are presented in bold type. For Chapter 3, this game is Vachier-Lagrave - Nepomniachtchi, Candidates Tournament Ekaterinburg 2020. After the moves 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.h4 Qc7 8.h5 h6 9.Rb1 b6 10.Qg4 Rg8, the authors break away from the MVL-Nepo game for an extended examination of Black's alternatives to 10...Rg8.  All of this material is presented in plain text, with only occasional diagrams and blank lines between paragraphs to break up what would otherwise be a solid wall of text. Wondering  where the MVL-Nepo game would be resumed, I paged forward repeatedly and eventually found the next bolded move (MVL's 11.Bb5+) more than thirteen pages later! 

TonyRo's remark about The Benko Bible definitely applies to the Winawer book as well: "One thing I need to stress about this book again is how poorly it's edited. They really needed to separate some of this stuff into A/B/C main variations, with A1, A2, etc, and more bold."

The one redeeming organizational feature in Beating the Winawer is the Index of Variations in the back of the book. It definitely helps in navigating the mounds of text, but it would be even better to have something like this at the beginning of each chapter, like books from Thinkers Publishing and Quality Chess. This would eliminate the need to constantly flip to the back of the book to get one's bearings. The index in the Winawer book only lists main variations, so the reader still has to flip through pages to find if moves within these lines are covered. Also, as helpful as the index is, it can't overcome the typography. I tried to look up a move listed in the index, and it did indeed appear on the indicated page, but it was buried in the middle of a paragraph with no visual aids to alert the reader that this was the beginning of a new variation.

Moving on to my question in Reply #19 - Anish Giri covered the 7.h4 Winawer in his Chessable Lifetime Repertoire course on the French. He deviated from Nepo's 9...b6, instead recommending 9...Nbc6, with the intention of meeting 10.Qg4 (the usual move in this position) with 10...Rg8. Giri indicated the rook move to be a novelty, and the Mega Database shows no occurrences of this move until after Giri's course was published in August 2020. The Modern Chess database by Jobava and Basso mentioned by FreeRepublic in Reply #18 recommends the same 9...Nbc6 10.Qg4 Rg8. Both sources conclude Black equalizes with 10...Rg8.

I searched through Beating the Winawer for the authors' recommendation against 10...Rg8, but they only cover the older 10...Nf5, even though the Mega Database lists 27 games with 10...Rg8 since September, 2020. After going back and looking through Beating the Winawer, I realized there didn't seem to be many games from 2020 and none from after that year. The MVL-Nepo game was played in March 2020, so I wonder if the cutoff date for material in the book is sometime between March and August 2020. 

Forum members may recall that this new book first appeared several years ago in the "Coming Soon" section of the Thinkers Publishing website. Back then it had a slightly different title (Beat the French Winawer Variation) and only Kotronias and Ivanov were listed as the authors. After languishing for quite some time in the "Coming Soon" section, the book simply disappeared sometime around March 2024 without being published. It resurfaced in the later part of 2025 in the "Upcoming Titles" section of the Russell Enterprises site with its current title and a third coauthor, IM Andrei Obodchuk. It's pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if the manuscript submitted to Thinkers was never in a form suitable for publishing, leading the publisher to drop it. A third coauthor was brought onboard to get the work into some semblance of being ready to publish, but no effort was made to update it with developments that had occurred in the intervening five or so years.

This explanation seems plausible, and there are certainly other examples of Beating the Winawer being somewhat out of date. The authors treatment of the Armenian Variation begins with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.Nb5 Bb6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Bb2. Here Kotronias and his coauthors make no mention of 10...f6, which is one of the suggestions in April 2025 Modern Chess database French Winawer - Play the Armenian Variation by Dreev and Basso. (This line was discussed by me, MartinC, and others in this thread https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1380429314). Beating the Winawer does cover the older 10...Nge7, but even here, Dreev and Basso improve on the line presented in the book.

Finally, by a fortuitous coincidence, the latest issue of Chess Life has a nice overview of French Winawer theory by Nikolaos Ntirlis. Among other variations, he covers the 7.h4 Winawer, showing how Black can improve on the MVL-Nepo game. He cites a 2023 correspondence game, which isn't mentioned by Kotronias and company. Instead they examine a 2020 correspondence game that ended in a draw and indicate how White could have obtained ⩲ with an improvement. That this suggestion comes on move 32 isn't entirely unusual - other variations are analyzed past move 30. Whether one regards such deep analysis as thorough or excessive may depend on one's point of view. However, it's rather moot in this case because the suggested improvement for White is evaluated as = when I check it with Stockfish. Also, in that 2020 game, Black had the option on move 18 to transpose into the 2023 game, which seems to offer a quicker and surer route to equality.

Despite its flaws, Beating the Winawer is of considerable utility to the White player seeking to adopt 7.h4 against the Winawer. The book has a wealth of material including original analysis and covers all of Black's major attempts to counter 7.h4. The authors also examine early Black sidelines in the Winawer such as the Armenian (as indicated above), the Portisch-Hook, 6...Nc6, the Classical Winawer (6...Qc7), and 4...Qd7/4...b6. In addition, they provide nearly a hundred annotated games to illustrate typical play in the various lines. The book is more than a White repertoire - the authors also analyze less optimal White moves and show how these can be met by Black. Thus, Black players may also find useful information in this work. However, those intending to use the book should be aware of the extra work required to wrestle with its organization and to update those variations where recent theoretical developments have occurred.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #19 - 12/10/25 at 02:25:11
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FreeRepublic - I looked at the sample game with 7.h4 on the Modern Chess site.  Jobava and Basso's line is the same as the one given against 7.h4 in Giri's French Lifetime Repertoire, released on Chessable in 2020. A few more variations are given in J & B's coverage, and they take their analysis of the endgame a move further.  Seeing the queen exchange and the simplification of the position to an endgame in this line, White OTB players may be tempted to go in for alternative continuations which may not be as strong objectively, but which offer more practical chances by keeping the queens on the board and retaining chances to make use of the space advantage.  After all, if White can get in f2-f4 and g2-g4 without disadvantage, he's achieved Kmoch's famous "quart grip".  Smiley

I'm curious how this recommendation from Giri and J & B is handled by Kotronias and his coauthors in their upcoming book on h4 vs. the Winawer.  I believe it's supposed to be published this month.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #18 - 12/08/25 at 17:12:35
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After 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. h4!?
Some authors suggest 7...Qc7!? for black. I gave up trying to make this work for black. However, I'm greatly encouraged by a sample game available at Modern-chess. French Defense for Black - Play the Winawer Variation - Part 1 by Jobava and Basso.

With black having an adequate answer to 7h4, I consider the Winawer feasible once again. Jobava & Basso:

"The Winawer is the most fascinating line in all Chess theory — wild, deep, and governed by its own logic. Most players never truly understand it. In this first volume, we take the positional approach — but not the boring one. Before diving into modern theory full of new ideas and novelties, we’ll study the classics: model games from Short, Jussupow, Korchnoi… all the way to Nepomniachtchi. Understanding comes first — theory comes after."
  
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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #17 - 04/18/12 at 21:49:34
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This afternoon I took a slightly closer look to Moskalenko's recommendation. Omitting ...c5-c4 demands a Knight's sac for three pawns.
7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 h6 10.Qg4 Nf5 11.Bd3 (Black does not have to fear c3-c4 as the Queen simply will retreat to c7) O-O 12.Nf3 and Qa4 13.O-O b6 14.c4 Ba6 (perhaps the most ambitious) looks reasonable. There is a game with 12.Qh3 won by Kurnosov, but Qa4 13.g4 Nfxd4 14.cxd4 Qxd4 is unclear and so is 12...cxd4 13.cxd4 Qa4 14.c3 b6/f6/Bd7 15.g4 Nfxd4.
After 12...c4 13.Bxf5 exf5 it will be a long manoeuvring game as there are no quick breakthroughs.
  

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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #16 - 04/18/12 at 16:27:29
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I'd not be so hugely worried about getting mated in those kingside castling lines. Dangerous of course, but white can only really do it by throwing his g pawn down the board uncastled so you do tend to get quite a lot of counterplay.

What worries me more from an objective point of view is how well blacks position stands up positionally after a c4 Bxf5 pair is put in. I'm not sure and its certainly not a well studied pawn structure.
  
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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #15 - 04/18/12 at 15:29:23
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After 7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 h6 10.Qg4 Black might try Moskalenko's 10...Nf5 11.Bd3 O-O, but castling early is always risky.
To improve Black's chances we might either postpone ...Nbc6 or ...Qa5. The combination of the two seems OK if White play Nf3 but is perhaps too slow if White doesn't.
7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 h6 9.Qg4 (9.Nf3 Qa5 10.Bd2 Qa4 and we are more or less happy, though White doesn't need to transpose to that Nakamura-Shulman game) Nf5 10.Bd3 O-O looks still scary.
So 7.h4 Qa5 8.Bd2 cxd4 9.cxd4 Qa4 10.h5 (we are certainly happy after 10.Nf3 Nbc6 transposing, perhaps even to Volokitin-Zhang Peng Xiang) Qxd4 (h6 11.Rb1 looks annoying) 11.Nf3 Qe4+ 12.Be2 Nf5. Sure White has compensation, but it looks less scary to me than say Kasperek-Schmidt.
We get the same position via 7.h4 Qc7 8.h5 cxd4 9.cxd4 Qc3+ 10.Bd2 Qxd4, but here White doesn't need to play 8.h5.
  

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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #14 - 04/11/12 at 16:47:48
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In the line with 16.Rc1, is there a reason you rejected the straightforward 19...Nxe5 ?

Sadly 19...Ne7? seems to meet with a tactical refutation in the surprising 20.Qxd4! Nf5 21.Qxc3!, the point being 21...Nxh6 22.Ra1 Qb6 23.Qd2!, intending Rfb1 and c3 to round up the knight - amazingly putting white possibly ahead on material as well as still having the passed pawn, and some activity plus.

Instead 19...Nxe5 gives black some chances after 20.Nxd4 Bc6 21.g3 Qd5 22.Nxc6 Nbxc6 since white cannot hang onto his bishop pair, after 23.Rfd1 Nf3+ 24.Bxf3 Qf3, though white has his chances to win here, whereas black maybe has less. So I fear black is not out of the woods in this line... unless dom or another stronger Francophile can find some improvement for black?
  

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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #13 - 04/11/12 at 16:33:03
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dom wrote on 04/08/12 at 14:08:11:

B) 9..h6 10.Qg4 cxd4 11.Qxg7 Rg8 12.Qf6 dxc3 13.Bxh6 d4!? 14.Nf3 Nd5 15.Qh4 Ndb4 16.Qe1 (16.Rc1 Qxa3 17.Bb5 Bd7 18.oo Qa5 19.Be2 Ne7 20.Nxd4 Nxe5 21.Bf3 Nbc6 22.Be3 Nd5 24.Rce1 Nxe3 25.fxe3 Qg5= ; 16.Kd1 d3 17.Bxd3 Nxd3 18.cxd3 Nxe5) Bd7 17.g3 ooo 18.Bc4 d3 19.Bxd3 Nxd3+ 20.cxd3 Ne7 21.Qb4 Qd5 22.Qc4+ Qxc4 23.dxc4 Bc6 24.Ke2 Nf5 25.Bf4 c2 26.h6 Be4 27.Rhc1 Bd3+ 28.Kd2 Be4=



Okay, first impressions on this one... in your line 16.Kd1 d3 17.Bxd3 Nxd3 18.cxd3, 18...Nxe5?! 19.Nxe5 Qxe5 20.Be3 looks strong for white - he can blockade the pawn on c2, play Bd4 and then just push the h-pawn. I can't really rescue black after 18...b6 or 18...Rxg2 either, the same plan seems too strong.

So, is perhaps 16...b6 stronger? This keeps the idea of ...d3 in reserve, which might well be stronger if the Bf1 is already traded such as after 17.Bg5!? [Seems strongest and thematic with the same h6-h7-h8 plan] Ba6! 18.Bxa6 [18.h6? Bxf1 19.h7 Rh8 20.Rxf1 d3! -/+] Qxa6 19.h6?! d3! 20.h7?! dc+ 21.Kc1 Rh8! 22.Bf6 Nd3+ -+

So on 16.Kd1, 16...b6! looks the correct move, after which the question might be whether white can keep the balance, not black.
  

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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #12 - 04/10/12 at 10:03:18
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Hi Dom, 
Thanks for your variations!

However, in line A I am still rather worried... instead of 19.Bd3, white has the interesting 19.Qb2 when 19...c4 seems to fail to 20.Ba5! (20...b6 21.Ba6+ Kd8 22.Bxb6+! ab 23.Qxb6 +-). So far I cannot find anything better than 19...Kb8 allowing ...Rc8 in defence, but after 20.Be2 Qe4 21.Qc3! where 21...c4 is met by 22.Ne1! where white has some strong ideas.

I rather get the feeling that 9...Bd7 is in a lot of trouble... and since I do not trust 9...cd either, that leaves 9...h6 as the only semi-reliable defence. I will have a look at your lines for B and get back to you in due course. 

All the best!
  

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Re: C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #11 - 04/08/12 at 14:08:11
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Yesterday, I was just browsing more pages on Williams's book... today I have seen this post and skipped 40 pages forward to read about 7.h4

I have many "small" commentsfor whole book I will post soon here. For example start of page 152: not written "7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2 Bd7! 10.h6 gxh6 11.Nf3 ooo 12.Rxh6 Ng8 13.Rh4 f6 14.c4!? Berndt-Wegener,Autriche 2001 (Vilela, NiC YB 83)".

I focus on first post and some variations (no time for looking at others) 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.h4 Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5! 9.Bd2

A) 9...Bd7!? 10.h6 gxh6 11.Rb1 ooo 12.Rb5 Qa4 13.Qb1 Nxd4! 14.cxd4 (14.Rxc5+ Nbc6) Bxb5 15.Bxb5 (15.Qxb5 Qxd4 16.Ne2  Qa1+ 17.Bc1 c4) Qxd4 16.Nf3  and now 16...Qg4!? (instead of 16..Qe4+), the idea being pressure on g file.

and to follow: 17.Rh2 (17.Kf1 Rg8 18.Rh2 Nf5 19.Bd3 c4 20.Bxf5 Qxf5 21.Rxh6 Qg4! 22.Rh2 (22.Nh4 c3) c3! 23.Bxh6 (23.Be3 Qc4+ 24.Kg1 d4 ; 23.Be1 Qc4+ 24.Kg1 d4 25.Rh4 (25.Qb4 Qxb4 26.axb4 d3) Rxg2! 26.Kxg2 Rg8+ ) Qc4+ 24.Kg1 (24.Ke1 Rg4) Qe2 =+

B) 9..h6 10.Qg4 cxd4 11.Qxg7 Rg8 12.Qf6 dxc3 13.Bxh6 d4!? 14.Nf3 Nd5 15.Qh4 Ndb4 16.Qe1 (16.Rc1 Qxa3 17.Bb5 Bd7 18.oo Qa5 19.Be2 Ne7 20.Nxd4 Nxe5 21.Bf3 Nbc6 22.Be3 Nd5 24.Rce1 Nxe3 25.fxe3 Qg5= ; 16.Kd1 d3 17.Bxd3 Nxd3 18.cxd3 Nxe5) Bd7 17.g3 ooo 18.Bc4 d3 19.Bxd3 Nxd3+ 20.cxd3 Ne7 21.Qb4 Qd5 22.Qc4+ Qxc4 23.dxc4 Bc6 24.Ke2 Nf5 25.Bf4 c2 26.h6 Be4 27.Rhc1 Bd3+ 28.Kd2 Be4=

  

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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #10 - 04/08/12 at 10:27:52
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This is all the analysis so far, SmyslovFan, with a few extra bits thrown in last-minute. Hopefully this will help the discussion!  Cool
  

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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #9 - 04/08/12 at 09:56:41
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Okay, first impressions (having managed to get Houdini running, as well as using the Moskalenko book)

1) 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Qa4 11.h6! seems enough for a comfortable white position after the idea of 15.Kf1 outlined below. So 11.Nf3 is less relevant as there is another seemingly forced path to a white advantage... 

2) At least Nakamura's 12...h6 seems to be a better try against 11.Nf3 - though 13.Bb4 and looks a better try than the immediate 13.Kf1. 13.Bb4 Ndc6 (13...Ndf5!?) 14.Bd6! (Since white's point seems to be play on the dark squares, this seems most relevant) Qa5+ 15.Kf1 b6!? 16.Rh4! Ba6 17.Kg1! seems rather double-edged - maybe I prefer white a little, but I think black has defensive possibilities at least. However, sadly, the analysis on 11.h6 is rendering this somewhat irrelevant at the moment. Can anyone improve black's play there?

3) In his 'blues' line 9...Qa4, he neglects to mention that white can play 10.h6 gh 11.Rb1! with a possible transposition to the Volcaturo/Morozevich lines. Whilst b7 is currently defended, this means that black has to be a bit more careful about Bb5 ideas as well. After 11.Rb1 Rg8 12.Bb5! Qxa3 13.Kf1! black seems to have no better than 13...a6 14.Bd3! cd 15.cd Nxd4 where white has a pleasant choice between 16.Rxh6 and 16.Rh3!? and 16.Bb4! which may well be strongest. So it seems that 9...Qa4 may be insufficient too against 11.Rb1? Or can anyone see some improvements for black here?

4) All this considered, the sober 9...h6 might be black's best bet after all. My only concern is after 10.Qg4 (10.Nf3 might lead back to the other lines, which may be less worrying if Naka's 12...h6 holds up) cxd4 11.cxd4 Qa4 12.c3 Nf5 (My suggestion) (or Farago's 12...Rg8 13.Qf4 b6 14.Rh3 Ba6, for that matter) 13.Nf3, can black drum up some play with 13...b6 14.Bd3 Ba6 15.Bxf5 ef 16.Qxg7 Qb5!?, or does this just lead to a draw? Perhaps 16...O-O-O might be a better idea? I'm looking for lines I can win with, after all!! Still, 9...h6 looks like the best bet at the moment to make 7...Nbc6 work.
  

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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #8 - 04/08/12 at 09:14:29
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Fair enough Smiley Here you go:

  
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #7 - 04/08/12 at 09:04:06
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For those of us who are less familiar with Willaims' analysis of the Winawer, what are the first 6 moves?
  
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #6 - 04/08/12 at 08:49:58
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You can certainly win after 7.. Qc7 (with either side!). Some patience required as its not a straight up open fight, but there you go Smiley (similar things seem to apply to Mosalenko's treatment of 7.. Qa5)

If you want an open fight it'll have to these lines somewhere. 13 Qc1 seems like a typical move - in Watson's related main line at move 14 say.

Blacks typical plan here seems to be c4 - so you don't drop the pawn! - followed by whatever is needed to enforce f6 and then maybe e5 if need be. So Nce7 - g6 fits quite well, Rf8 also but its maybe slightly problematic in this precise position etc. 

White's queenside attack is very restricted by itself - especially if the black queen (as it seems) can get back to a5 to blockade the pawn with Ne7 in to stop Rb5. The danger is more getting tied down there then getting done on the dark squares/center.

Seems a priori reasonable, but certainly a lot of piece shuffling in prospect Smiley Taking on d4 is perhaps the concrete way to go.
  
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