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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances? (Read 18406 times)
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #5 - 04/07/12 at 21:49:21
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Basically 7 h4 is the aggresive positional approach against the Winawer, and has it's points.  Kasparov and Morozevich have both played it with success.

Years ago when studying 3 Nc3 for white I concluded 7 h4 was line I liked best, and is what I played (I no longer play 1.e4...).  7 Qg4 is more obviously aggressive but 7 h4 also dangerous without having such forcing play.  I'm not certain white can prove an advantage in all lines but black is under pressure without either side engaging in large amounts of theory and that is what matters.

This line can also be used against the "Black Queen Blues" line Moskalenko is so in favour of which really does make it a very practical line for white.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #4 - 04/07/12 at 21:43:29
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Yes, after I posted this I opened my copy of Moskalenko's offering for the first time, going straight to this section. I will have to look at it in some detail before giving real feedback... but my worry instantly over his coverage of 7...Qc7 is it seems concerned with black not being able to lose, but he doesn't really suggest many ways that black can play for a win either.

So it looks like I will have to keep investigating 9...cxd4 and 9...Qa4 - I really do not have much faith in 9...Bd7 and 9...h6 looks much more defensive in nature and without experience of defending those sorts of positions, I get the feeling I might struggle. However, I'd be interested on some Francophiles' opinions on my suggested 13.Qc1!? as an attempted improvement - does anyone have more faith in black's position here? As I am less used to these structures I may well be mis-assessing things.

I'll have a look at Moskalenko's black proposals tomorrow and comment when I can... this is doubly important for me as I continue to meet 1.d4 e6 with 2.e4 as I enjoy playing the white side of the French, and it would be nice to have an alternative to the 5.Qg4 which has served me well over the years.
  

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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #3 - 04/07/12 at 21:23:08
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/07/12 at 17:24:34:
there are quite a few lines which he seems to advocate by his mentioning of them, but which his comments betray a complete lack of confidence in.

This seems to be a habit. Play the Dutch also had a few of such lines.
I discovered 7.h4 several years ago when I had learned that 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Bd3 Qa5! is good for Black. I won a nice game with it; alas I have lost the score. It might be somewhere on this forum, as I posted it, but I have no idea where and can't refind it.
But now you know why you need Moskalenko. He prefers 11...Qxd4 iso 11...Nxd4, but you seem to improve White's play. M. doesn't trust 9...Bd7, but besides 9...h6 also recommends 9...Qa4, transposing to the Black Queen Blues, Volokitin-Zhang Peng Xiang.
M. also investigates 7...Qc7.
My conclusion then was that 7.h4 was not worse than 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Qxg7, but not better either. Black should be prepared for it.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #2 - 04/07/12 at 19:33:09
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Well first up it certainly is a genuinely dangerous move Smiley

You've also hit a basic point about the nature of Williams' book - its very committed to super aggressive chess even when it goes slightly past the point of soundness.

This isn't anything like the worst case, because it has been the main line for a while, albiet suffering from Rb1 for the moment. But given the stated objectives he could hardly give taking on d4 or some of the slower ideas as his main line!

Mosalenko which I think you've also ordered gives a bunch of ideas here. Also see Nakamura - Shulman from the 2010 US championships. (13.. h6 in the Qxd4 gambit.). 

I must admit to a vaguely soft spot for 7 .. Nc6 8 h5 h6 ^ 9 Qg4 o-o or 9 Nf3 Qa5 10 Bd2 o-o but that's because I'm used to 7 Qg4 o-o after which this isn't so scary Wink

None of this is trivial mind. Even 11 Rb1!  Qxa3?! (!?) isn't hopeless , cf 12 Rb3 Qa4 13 Qc1 Nd8 14 Ra3 Qc6, or even the bizzare looking 12 Rb3 Qa5!? 13 Rxb7 cd 14 cd Qa4.

The former might be taking weak dark squares a bit far, the latter I dunno.
  
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Re: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
Reply #1 - 04/07/12 at 17:34:54
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As for 9...Bd7 10.h6 gh 11.Rb1! (Morozevich's move) I had pinned my hopes on 11...Qc7!? (again, Williams' annotation), but after 12.Nf3 Ng8 then white seems to have stronger than 13.Rh4; for example 13.Qc1!? (which discourages an ...f6 break by planning to meet it with ef Nxf6 Bf4!) O-O-O 14.a4! and whilst I am not sure of black's plan here, I'd prefer to be playing white. Qa3 could be a potent attacking move, and closing the queenside with 14...c4 15.Qa3 Nce7 16.a5 doesn't look like it makes his position brilliant... What is black's plan? Or, rather, where is his improvement on this line. I'm sure there must be one... otherwise 7...Nbc6 really must be an error, and it looks too natural to be an error.
  

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C18: Winawer with 7.h4 - What are black's chances?
04/07/12 at 17:24:34
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Afternoon folks,

Have received and have started to look through Williams' book on the French. However, there are quite a few lines which he seems to advocate by his mentioning of them, but which his comments betray a complete lack of confidence in. 

The first one of these is 7.h4 against the Winawer. He seems very unconvinced by black's position in almost every line he mentions, and doesn't really go into any depth about alternatives. He even talks about worrying about the general soundness of black's set-up (in his main line with 7...Nbc6 8.h5 Qa5 9.Bd2). Statistics seem to back up that white is doing well in this line, especially after his main recommendations 9...Bd7 and 9...h6.

So, is he right to be so pessimistic? Is 7...Nbc6 in fact the wrong move, and perhaps black is better off with e.g. 7...Qc7?

Or, is there any salvation for black in the line 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Qa4? 
i) 11.Nf3 Nxd4 12.Bd3 Nec6 13.Kf1! Nxf3 14.Qxf3 Qd4 15.Re1 Nxe5 16.Qg3 Nxd3 17.cxd3 and I worry about black's survival - Rh4 seems a strong idea, and it is hard to see how black develops any of his remaining pieces... I can't see any improvement here. Maybe black can grovel beginning with 17...Rg8?
ii) Williams also suggests 13...Nf5, but after 14.Bxf5 exf5 15.h6 his 15...Rg8! (his exclam, I'd give ?!) isnt met necessarily by 16.Bg5, but by 16.hxg7! which seems an improvement, intending a later Bg5-f6. 16...f4 seems forced but after 17.Rxh7 white can play Rh4 to round up the f-pawn, and I do not believe in black's chances being enough for the pawn he is essentially losing. 
iii) He also mentions the possibility of 11.h6 Qxd4 12.Nf3 Qe4+ 13.Be2 and now gives 13...Nxe5?! which looks a little dubious to me - I am not sure I like the endgame that arises in his main line with 14.Bc3 f6 15.hg Rg8 16.Nxe5 fe 17.Qd3 Qxd3 18.Bxd3 d4 19.Bb4 Rxg7 20.Rxh7 Rxh7 21.Bxh7 - the bishop pair and the passed g-pawn looks stronger than the extra doubled pawn... However maybe black can play 13...hxg6, when 14.Rh4!? Qg6 15.Kf1! looks rather interesting and possibly good for white after 15...Rg8 16.g3 intending simply to take on h6 or/and to play Bd3 with good play for his material.

So, are there improvements for black above? Am I also being too pessimistic? 7.h4! looks like a very strong move, and 7...Nbc6 seems to be inadequate as far as these lines show (in conjunction with his analysis on 9...Bd7 and 9...h6 which also seem inadequate).
« Last Edit: 04/08/12 at 14:04:19 by dom »  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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