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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening specific cheating (Read 52760 times)
Jay
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #121 - 05/08/12 at 18:30:06
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/08/12 at 17:26:19:
I'm not gonna shut down a thread that is this popular unless it breaches site rules. This one hasn't ... so far.

I don't think the privilege of closing the thread is worth getting booted. Wink
  
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barnaby
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #120 - 05/08/12 at 17:32:32
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/08/12 at 14:26:47:
After many pages, someone pointed out that looking up theory while playing on ICC was completely in accordance with the rules--not cheating.  



Is there a link to ICC and their rules on this or some other substantiation that this is indeed the case?


I see a rule that states:   " ICC considers the use of assistance from computer programs or other people to be cheating, and will take appropriate action."

... but I do not see use of books addressed.

I had always assumed that using other materials like database and books would fall under this umbrella of help from another person.  Databases are clearly off limits as per this sentence:  " In the rest of this file "computer" means the use of any chess-related computer program during an ICC game, including chess-playing programs and chess databases."


On another fronts here (several) there seems to be an improper conflation of at least two separate issues here:

~ What is cheating on ICC?
~ How should one handle it?

The first seems to be a cut and dry situation but the second seems to be open to subjective thoughts and ongoing discussion along those lines is hardly wasteful and could deepen other people's understanding of how to handle one's own emotions when they feel they have been tricked or deceived.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #119 - 05/08/12 at 17:26:19
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I'm not gonna shut down a thread that is this popular unless it breaches site rules. This one hasn't ... so far.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #118 - 05/08/12 at 17:25:25
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/08/12 at 14:26:47:
Soo...a thread started where someone wanted to talk about his opponents looking up theory on ICC and he called that cheating.  After many pages, someone pointed out that looking up theory while playing on ICC was completely in accordance with the rules--not cheating.  Then we started talking about the ethics of playing while reading a textbook?  Then Bibs kicked the chair out from underneath a dwarf ("little person") but could only manage a draw...how has this thread gone on so long?  I feel like I'm in the weird part of the internet again...but carry on.



Long live Internet forums!  Cheesy
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #117 - 05/08/12 at 14:26:47
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Soo...a thread started where someone wanted to talk about his opponents looking up theory on ICC and he called that cheating.  After many pages, someone pointed out that looking up theory while playing on ICC was completely in accordance with the rules--not cheating.  Then we started talking about the ethics of playing while reading a textbook?  Then Bibs kicked the chair out from underneath a dwarf ("little person") but could only manage a draw...how has this thread gone on so long?  I feel like I'm in the weird part of the internet again...but carry on.

  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #116 - 05/08/12 at 12:07:20
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I now reply to the surviving part of the post of Uhoh's that I so carelessly and incompetantly butchered:

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/08/12 at 02:03:44:


I already stated that I was willing to take responsibility for my defeats, but it's highly important who exactly I take responsibility for having lost against.




No it isn't.  You lost because your moves were worse than your opponent's.  The rest is distraction.

For the same reason, if you sit down opposite a GM, you don't say, "OMG!! I'm up a against a grandmaster!! I won't win!".  You sit down and you play chess, and you know what?  To beat you, he has to play better moves than you do.  Those moves don't come from his GM title certificate, they come from him.  The chess is in the moves, not in the player's identity.

If a 1200 beats you, it's just the same deal.  He played better moves.

I have told this to so many students who complained about their badly-behaving opponents: You didn't lose because of his bad behavior.  You lost because he played better moves than you did.

And I respectfully disagree with the first part of your statement.  So long as you worry about this, you are not taking responsibility for your defeats.
    
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #115 - 05/08/12 at 08:18:21
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/08/12 at 02:03:44:
 
Straggler wrote on 05/07/12 at 22:28:59:
In which jurisdiction(s)? Not this one.

Any professional contract requires a certain minimal standard to be adhered to and if the contract is blatantly and intentionally violated and a player scores an intentional own goal for example, then a crime must have been committed. The level of betting on sports today also means that a player can't just decide to throw the game at a whim, especially of course if asked to by someone else. It may also be fraud because unlike the WWF, professional sports is marketed as real teams fighting for dominance.

There may be a breach of contract, depending on the circumstances - in particular, the terms of any relevant contract. If there is, it may also be a crime, depending on the circumstances - though most breaches of contract are not criminal. So it's rubbish to say simply that deliberate underperformance by a professional sportsman is a crime.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #114 - 05/08/12 at 05:24:39
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/08/12 at 02:03:44:


Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/07/12 at 19:25:57:
Quite often, a strong player will play second-rate or even bad moves in the opening. They may do it to give themselves an extra challenge, to get their opponents out of known lines, or any of a number of other legitimate reasons. According to your belief system, a strong player should not be allowed to play 1.a3 if he believes it's not the best move.


Since there is no possible legitimate reason to play 1. a3 or 1. ...a6, then yes I do think the person who plays them is in error. If you are motivated to win something, then you don't enjoy being given a head start, you want your opponent to also be playing their best. 1. b3 can take play into independant lines and so is completely legitimate. I would never claim that taking the opponent into independant lines is not okay.  
 
    


Except for the mental aspect, I would just say A. Miles.

Uhoh, you really have to rest your case. There is nothing about reality in your thinking.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #113 - 05/08/12 at 05:09:02
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Bibs wrote on 05/08/12 at 04:14:27:
Played someone a while ago. A dwarf with unusually long fingers.
Stood on his chair throughout the game to reach. Long fingers enabled him to move more efficiently, and with considerable grace. 
Lengthy fingers and chair-standing an unfair advantage?
I thought so and kicked his chair on occasion to send the diminutive fellow toppling.
We drew.

You're lucky - I lost without any chance against him.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #112 - 05/08/12 at 04:14:27
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Played someone a while ago. A dwarf with unusually long fingers.
Stood on his chair throughout the game to reach. Long fingers enabled him to move more efficiently, and with considerable grace. 
Lengthy fingers and chair-standing an unfair advantage?
I thought so and kicked his chair on occasion to send the diminutive fellow toppling.
We drew.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #111 - 05/08/12 at 02:03:44
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From Markovich: F--k!!!  I did it again! I totally butchered Uhoh's post by modifying when I thought I was quoting.  I am such an idiot.  Profuse apologies.  This much survives:

I already stated that I was willing to take responsibility for my defeats, but it's highly important who exactly I take responsibility for having lost against.

« Last Edit: 05/08/12 at 12:06:08 by Markovich »  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #110 - 05/08/12 at 00:14:31
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Uhoh, you wrote this:

People are fine with taking responsibility for their defeats. It's when they don't know whether it's Houdini or a 2100 player that beat them that is where the problem lies. 

What problem?  If you lose, you lose, and you should take responsibility for it.  Don't you see?  All this fretting over whether your opponent "cheated" or not is a way of avoiding responsibility for your defeats.  It's not your opponent's moves that you're responsible for, it's your own.  You want to win a game of chess?  Play better.

If you adopt a different attitude than that, it will seriously impede your game.

Now if you're in some venue where you just get killed all the time, by all means, play in a different venue.  That's fine, because getting killed all the time doesn't do much for your game.  But just go quietly, and don't say it was because they were all cheaters.

God, looking down the list, this thread has become verbose.  But you have to love it. The only thing that would make it better would be if we were talking about cheating in the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit.
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #109 - 05/07/12 at 22:28:59
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/07/12 at 18:29:47:
in professional sports it's a criminal offence to intentionally under-perform 

In which jurisdiction(s)? Not this one.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #108 - 05/07/12 at 20:16:37
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I agree with everything S_F and Gilchrist is a legend said.

Also, this point:

Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/07/12 at 18:29:47:
What you may not realize is that for the 1800 player, beating a 2200 player three times may feel like the best day of his chess life and he does not realize anything is different. So many problems are solved if people just play properly, and can have some faith that the person at the other end of the line is a normal player, playing honestly in order to try to win.   


...is not really a good one. You should be able to realize when you've played a good or bad game, regardless of the opponent's rating and even the result. 

I have one single win over a GM in a long OTB tournament game. Do I go around bragging about that every opportunity? No, because nobody who blunders a whole rook in a slightly better endgame is playing at GM level on the day. But according to you, perhaps my opponent was doing something unethical?!

I'm much more satisfied with a well-played game against an equal or just slightly stronger opponent, even if I don't win. Of course I try my best to win, but afterwards when I'm analyzing my play to try to improve, quality of play is relevant, not the capricious results of individual games.

Wins over GMs and IMs in internet blitz don't mean much, for all the reasons already given in the thread.
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #107 - 05/07/12 at 20:13:11
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/07/12 at 18:29:47:
fling wrote on 05/07/12 at 06:50:01:
Honestly, why would this be unethical? All people can choose whether they want to do their best or not, right? What kind of world do you live in? If we really could demand the very best from people, we should really go knock on the door of the politicians first...

Anyway, you could also argue Gilchrist did his very best according to the circumstances.


It's not that I think people have to perform their absolute best at all times, I just don't think they should play in circumstances where their performance is like 300-400 points lower than normal. This is as a corollary to my belief against cheating. Firstly, people who beat them are falsely going to think they're doing a good job. Secondly, when the player's performance is better again they'll be damaging the ratings of players because they'll under-rated.  

The people extrapolating it to ad absurdum may find it interesting to note that in professional sports it's a criminal offence to intentionally under-perform. Hugely underperforming is just not a good thing to do. I used to play without a mouse sometimes, and would sometimes even actually tell my opponent that afterwards if I lost on time in an annoying way. I know that was a mistake, and I should have made sure to have played with a mouse or at least not tried to take something from the other player with my spiteful remark.  

I'm not saying that everyone else should find it unethical to underperform, especially if it's just being quite tired/lazy/drunk and still wanting to play. All I'm saying is that, like claiming that cheating is a terrible thing, drastically underperforming is bad also. What you may not realize is that for the 1800 player, beating a 2200 player three times may feel like the best day of his chess life and he does not realize anything is different. So many problems are solved if people just play properly, and can have some faith that the person at the other end of the line is a normal player, playing honestly in order to try to win.   
 


I think your analogy is flawed because you mentioned professional sports playing professional sports competitions. We are referring to online blitz as leisure or extremely casual practise. You are referring now somehow to professional sports. This is online blitz, not the Ashes Test Series, UEFA Champions League, the Rugby World Cup, or Australian Tennis Open. Obviously a professional athlete will try to perform best in a professional competition. But we are referring to online blitz with fake rating points, no tangible winning prizes, and a place where everyone, from unrated to GM play for fun. 

What is "intentionally underperforming"? If someone is losing games by playing 1. f3/2. Kf2/3. Ke3/4. Kd4 and not trying to win or even draw at all but trying to see how quickly one can get checkmated, that sounds like clear purposeful losing. But if someone is busy and wants to play some online blitz and multitask, but yet tries to play reasonably to win or perform well, that is a different scenario.

Even more ridiculous is to apply oneself as if one were sitting a university entrance exam whilst playing 3-minute or 1-minute, or even bughouse or giveaway. I played more than 10.000 bughouse games, most of them 1 0, and honestly I did not care if I lost or won. Or is it also unsportsmanlike to play 1 0 bughouse unless one is 100% applied and considers each game and each move extremely seriously?

I looked at some ICC games of my old coach, and though I will not say who he is, I see that he plays a lot of 1. a3 and 1...a6 in blitz. So I am not sure if he follows your blitz etiquette.

I had a friend who played rated 1-minute with no mouse, but by typing in the moves. He certainly did not care much about his rating points or some form of unspoken etiquette.
  

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