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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening specific cheating (Read 52800 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #31 - 05/02/12 at 03:48:20
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 05/01/12 at 21:16:07:
ErictheRed wrote on 05/01/12 at 14:41:28:
To be honest though, I've looked up book moves during a match.  Not necessarily during the game that the opening is being played, but if I got into one of those 10-game matches where you keep playing the same opponent, I'll look up the openings that were played in the last game while playing the current game, etc.  I think this kind of thing happens all the time.  I've never once played for money online or in any kind of "official" capacity so I never really gave it much thought.


.....no.

You seem to be trying to muddy the waters here by suggesting that looking up theory between games is about the same as during the games,  Huh which is obviously completely false. One is complete and absolute cheating, the other is completely and absolutely fair and legal and allowed(if potentially cheap depending on the level you're doing it at). There is no question about it.   
 
I have on a few occasions done the latter (between games) just to find a particular puzzling move, however I don't do it on a constant basis and also the opponent will usually try to rematch immediately. I also wonder if there's much point in doing it since I would probably forget it again later anyway. 

You then try to further excuse your cheating by talking about how it was never done on an official basis or for money and how you "think it happens all the time". 
  
Cheating is a terrible thing. It betrays a trust, makes a game worthless for the opponent and... everyone hates cheaters. Cheating is cheating, whether it's on a stupid scale (computer moves) or looking up the move from your new repertoire book you would know in the future. Whether it's for money or not matters little, unless it was mega-bucks you were referring to. 
 


Soo...you first say that looking up theory between games isn't cheating, but then accuse me of cheating later?  To be clear though, I wasn't talking about looking up theory between games, but rather DURING the following game of a "match," which I suppose is against the rules.  For instance, Game 1 I play 1.d4 and can't remember some Grunfeld theory, Game 2 I'm playing Black in a Sicilian but while playing I'm looking up the theory to the Grunfeld line of last game, hoping to use it in Game 3 (or just to learn it for the future).  In this case I don't really care about the game I'm currently playing; there was something exposed in my last game and I'm trying to rectify that.

Anyway I realized that some people wouldn't like my post when I wrote it, and I'm not trying to defend myself.  I'm not suggesting that I wasn't "cheating."  Rather, I was admitting to a practice that I think 90+% of people do online.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if something like 50% of people looked up the opening theory during the game in question.  I suppose that that is pretty cut and dry cheating.

However, let's keep things in context a little bit.  If you're playing chess on an online blitz server, maybe chess.com or ICC or playchess.com or whatever, and you're not playling for money, in a tournament, in any official capacity...isn't this a bit like cheating at monopoly at a family gathering?  Yes you're cheating, but who the hell really cares?  Personally I don't cheat, but my sister used to cheat at cards all the time when family got together; it was just part of the "game" we were playing.  How is it any different than looking up theory while playing in a coffee house?  I think people take some things waaayy too seriously.  

Of course, depending on the server, this sort of cheating is a violation of server rules, and hence is "bad."  Playing in an actual, over-the-board, sanctioned, rated event is completely different than some random game of blitz online.

Or am I just too old and don't realize how serious the Internet has become?!??

And to be clear, it's been about 3 years since I've had an account anywhere online to play chess, and I can't say I miss it AT ALL.  Now, I spend my free time studying (or playing guitar, exercizing, etc) instead of wasting time with blitz.  Hence my "confession" I suppose.

Now everyone don't mind me, carry on getting upset about someone taking 1 minute to play a "book" move...and mind your blood pressure while you're at it.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #30 - 05/01/12 at 21:16:07
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/01/12 at 14:41:28:
To be honest though, I've looked up book moves during a match.  Not necessarily during the game that the opening is being played, but if I got into one of those 10-game matches where you keep playing the same opponent, I'll look up the openings that were played in the last game while playing the current game, etc.  I think this kind of thing happens all the time.  I've never once played for money online or in any kind of "official" capacity so I never really gave it much thought.


.....no.

You seem to be trying to muddy the waters here by suggesting that looking up theory between games is about the same as during the games,  Huh which is obviously completely false. One is complete and absolute cheating, the other is completely and absolutely fair and legal and allowed(if potentially cheap depending on the level you're doing it at). There is no question about it.   
 
I have on a few occasions done the latter (between games) just to find a particular puzzling move, however I don't do it on a constant basis and also the opponent will usually try to rematch immediately. I also wonder if there's much point in doing it since I would probably forget it again later anyway. 

You then try to further excuse your cheating by talking about how it was never done on an official basis or for money and how you "think it happens all the time". 
  
Cheating is a terrible thing. It betrays a trust, makes a game worthless for the opponent and... everyone hates cheaters. Cheating is cheating, whether it's on a stupid scale (computer moves) or looking up the move from your new repertoire book you would know in the future. Whether it's for money or not matters little, unless it was mega-bucks you were referring to. 
 
  
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gwnn
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #29 - 05/01/12 at 21:01:12
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Sorry for this off-topic reply, but I just want to say to zoo that I've been in most of those stages in my chess development and still go back to some of them of course. Very enlightening (and, later, entertaining) post, thank you.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #28 - 05/01/12 at 20:47:30
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Focusing on the game while playing blitz is so 20th century, or something.
  
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zoo
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #27 - 05/01/12 at 20:17:23
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a phone call, a drink refill, a goal scored or a sudden zerg invasion on another part of the computer are sufficient reasons to take a 1mn break from an online chess game. When my opponent is stuck, I tend to suggest him moves if "claim win on disconnect" doesn't work.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #26 - 05/01/12 at 19:37:52
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Hmm, taking a minute out of a 3/5-minute game because you have to fix something to eat right then ...
  
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battleangel
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #25 - 05/01/12 at 18:58:10
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While playing 3 0 5 0 blitz etc. it also happens often to me that I have to pour in some tea or make myself some cereals to eat while playing ... can sometimes take a minute or so
  
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Willempie
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #24 - 05/01/12 at 17:57:09
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Markovich wrote on 05/01/12 at 13:01:58:

I salute your quickness of mind.  The way I play speed chess, 30 seconds is worth a rook.

Well usually the time control is 5 minutes or more, so it isnt that fast. Plus walking away at the right moment is worth more than a rook.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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ErictheRed
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #23 - 05/01/12 at 14:41:28
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I don't have an ICC account anymore and so don't really play blitz online at all these days; thankfully, because I think I wasted way too much time doing that.   

To be honest though, I've looked up book moves during a match.  Not necessarily during the game that the opening is being played, but if I got into one of those 10-game matches where you keep playing the same opponent, I'll look up the openings that were played in the last game while playing the current game, etc.  I think this kind of thing happens all the time.  I've never once played for money online or in any kind of "official" capacity so I never really gave it much thought.   

Frankly I never cared if my opponents looked up theory; it seemed too time consuming to do on a consistent basis and still be able to play the remaining moves of the game.  Also, it's nice to get practice in more main lines.   

I think you just have to accept a certain amount of cheating in online chess and move on.  Same with correspondence chess; I saw a graph where the frequency of blunders in games for the US correspondence championship was plotted (I guess it was a move where the computer's evaluation changed by more than 2.0 points or something; I forget the definition they used), and basically blunders used to happen, then all of a sudden in the early 90s they almost completely disappeared...hmmm...it's pretty damn obvious that people are using their computers, at least to blunder check.  It's against the rules, but...what are you going to do??
  
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zoo
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #22 - 05/01/12 at 14:34:03
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That post recalled me of  a time when people beating me had to be cheaters. Of course it was frustration, but this milestone is perhaps shared by many players. As people often wonder when they reach a phase, here are, in my view, frequent stages of chess development :

- I am so gifted at chess, they must be cheating if they beat me ! damn cheaters...
- these idiots don't understand chess, all they do is swindling !
- the Age of Rating : I am **** (and certainly worth 200+)
- me, myself & my style : compared to players with similar [wannabe] rating, i have much better positional judgement, but keep falling for traps time and again. And of course : "I was winning..."
- me, myself & my repertoire: if this guy has an improvement on the critical Anand-Topalov line, i am lost for sure. (alt: my analysis says Caro-Kann is a draw after 34...Nh6!!, so next week i switch to Najdorf. oh, i also drop 1.any because it doesn't give enough winning chances)
- ok, my book says I have equalized! draw ? draw ??

<this is an important fork : at this point you can embark on long,"serious" games or decide to seek glory in online blitz. In the latter case you'll develop unique abilities such as : a taste for "system" openings (or juste repeated opening moves), a desire to swap every possible piece, a special rook ending technique allowing to grab several pawns per second, an inner alarm telling when the game will be decided on time, at which point you can play tactically (ie random sacrifices) or positionally (ie just moving one piece, usually knight or king). Let's see typical next steps in case you want to keep playing chess>

- this guy is stronger than me (= has better rating), so I will avoid theory in order to level chances (= he's nothing without his books).
  [so wrong, yet so common. A case when the need for an excuse leads one to weaker play]
- When I took the pawns he had nothing, but later on i blundered...
- he only plays boring positions, i didn't even feel like winning...
- I had no idea what to do, so i launched a pawn attack...
- at this point, i was running short of time (a way to warn your audience for the upcoming moves -- one problem with chess is that you have few excuses for poor play, so this one is going to be a loyal friend) 

<after this comes another breakthrough in your chess life: you & the chessboard start to be friends, and you are less prone to destroying yourself in equal positions. Now your opponents start making mistakes before you do, and after a long swindling phase it's your turn to become swindled more often. You don't grab or defend every unimportant pawn, and gather some experience in middlegame gambits (those with no names), good/bad/idle pieces and endings.You get a sense for when you must do something or do nothing. Against your peers you need to find good moves, and reasons for a move to be good. On your opponent's time, you ponder what can be achieved with your position. You can find many theoretic moves without having read them in a book. Compared to titled players, you notice that you find most tactical shots, yet their play is consistently better in quiet positions. on the other hand, your computer tells you that they often make inaccuracies, even blunders. so they're not gods after all! that gives you enough motivation, and finally... >
  
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fling
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #21 - 05/01/12 at 14:16:13
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barnaby wrote on 05/01/12 at 05:43:06:
I used to get upset about the online cheating but once I started to realize my rating there was essentially meaningless and I was there to improve my chess (and have fun) it became easier to accept that those people using assistance were not compromising what I was there for.

So, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I expect it, accept it, and realize its part of the online chess experience.

Since I am still active otb and that is my main focus I can deal fine.  BUT if I was living a more sedentary life and the net was my only resource to play I am not so sure I would be as tolerant.  I have my own engine and if I want to play it I can so when I go online it is disappointing when one wants to test their skills against other people in their rating range and they encounter weird and suspicious behaviors.


This is really how I feel too. Funny though, I was once accused of playing with an engine because of moving too quickly. Well, I mainly play 1 0 and 3 0 online to avoid playing engines too much and part of this is moving quickly!
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #20 - 05/01/12 at 13:01:58
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Willempie wrote on 05/01/12 at 08:22:32:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/01/12 at 05:25:13:
True, but I have never seen anyone leave the playing hall for at least one minute whilst playing a game during a blitz tournament with a control of 5 0 or less. It would be quite difficult for someone to leave in the middle of an over-the-board 5-minute blitz tournament game and go type in all of the moves into a database and then somehow return and not lose on time.

I often do, well not the db thingy of course, but I frequently just leave the board for half a minute or so.
There is no substitute for intimidation in blitz Wink


I salute your quickness of mind.  The way I play speed chess, 30 seconds is worth a rook.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #19 - 05/01/12 at 08:22:32
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/01/12 at 05:25:13:
True, but I have never seen anyone leave the playing hall for at least one minute whilst playing a game during a blitz tournament with a control of 5 0 or less. It would be quite difficult for someone to leave in the middle of an over-the-board 5-minute blitz tournament game and go type in all of the moves into a database and then somehow return and not lose on time.

I often do, well not the db thingy of course, but I frequently just leave the board for half a minute or so.
There is no substitute for intimidation in blitz Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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barnaby
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #18 - 05/01/12 at 05:43:06
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I used to get upset about the online cheating but once I started to realize my rating there was essentially meaningless and I was there to improve my chess (and have fun) it became easier to accept that those people using assistance were not compromising what I was there for.

So, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I expect it, accept it, and realize its part of the online chess experience.

Since I am still active otb and that is my main focus I can deal fine.  BUT if I was living a more sedentary life and the net was my only resource to play I am not so sure I would be as tolerant.  I have my own engine and if I want to play it I can so when I go online it is disappointing when one wants to test their skills against other people in their rating range and they encounter weird and suspicious behaviors.
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #17 - 05/01/12 at 05:25:13
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barnaby wrote on 05/01/12 at 05:00:49:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/01/12 at 00:44:08:

What would you think if you played in a blitz tournament game with a control of 5 0, and your opponent paused for one minute during a seemingly obvious move in a long sequence and then played a correct move?



It depends.

If a person is sitting in front of you the whole time that is one thing but if they remove themselves from one's view, all bets are off. So I think it is not a great analogy to this present situation being discussed.

And except for that Annad Petroff video, I have never seen someone take more than a minute in a 5 minute game in the opening.

It's a highly unusual thing to do.

Perceptions are powerful.  

In real world otb chess it is very rare for someone my rating to follow book lines 20 moves deep but on ICC it happens all the time.  There must be some reason why and and a simply application of Occam's razor would seem to suggest the reason.


True, but I have never seen anyone leave the playing hall for at least one minute whilst playing a game during a blitz tournament with a control of 5 0 or less. It would be quite difficult for someone to leave in the middle of an over-the-board 5-minute blitz tournament game and go type in all of the moves into a database and then somehow return and not lose on time.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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