Poll
Poll closed Question: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand Title Match?
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Anand by 2 or more    
  36 (37.1%)
Gelfand by 2 or more    
  1 (1.0%)
Anand by 1    
  41 (42.3%)
Gelfand by 1    
  9 (9.3%)
Anand in a Tie-break    
  4 (4.1%)
Gelfand in a Tie-break    
  5 (5.2%)
The match will be cancelled.    
  1 (1.0%)




Total votes: 97
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 05/08/12 at 15:52:16 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship? (Read 165386 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #248 - 05/26/12 at 09:59:24
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chk wrote on 05/25/12 at 14:41:39:
Yes, could work both ways!

Anyway, match competition is different than tournaments and tends to produce more draws. Which doesn't really matter imo as the pressure piles up (so we get a different form of excitement).

But one question we can ask is why some of the previous WCh seemed more interesting? Has to do with:
1. the participants?
2. the number of games?
3. evolvement of chess theory (+computers) making preparation (and avoiding opponent's preparation) extremely important?
4. improved defensive skills of top chess players?
5. reduced time limits (per game)?
6. pure coincidence?
7. other?


What I miss mostly is new ideas in the openings, for a match of this importance one would have expected both players to come fully armed with at least 6 ideas for white and 6 for black - one of the benefits of a 12 game match in theory at least. 

But so far, both seem quite happy to either play something solid or try to avoid theory early. I get the feeling that if the format was 24 games we'd just get 12 more draws. 

Basically, it seems they haven't done their homework.

In earlier Wch matches there was usually at least one new opening idea or opening surprise that soon everybody knew and talked about. Topalov's Qc2, Karpov's Bxf7, Kramnik's new ideas in the Berlin which Kasparov couldn't handle. Anand springing the Scandinavian on Kasparov etc etc.
  
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micawber
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #247 - 05/26/12 at 08:44:55
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I think the amount of draws is not necessary the decisive factor, but the way they have been reached is. And sure the influence of computers has imo something to do with this. This has greatly accelatered the development of opening theory, and preparation. Since it is much easier (and less time consuming) to check if a slightly worse position is defensible and to extract the optimal defensive strategy. 

Are top players today so much better defenders than say 30 or even 50 years ago? I dont know. Petrosian, Korchnoi and Karpov were certainly famous for their defensive skills.

The format of a short match in combination with the discovery of more and more rock-solid defensive lines certainly leads to a "zero-risk" approach.
By the way we saw the same happening in a more extreme form in the candidate cycle from Gelfand emerged.

Do the storylines define an interesting match? And was it the only reason that we appreciate Korchnoi-Karpov match/1978 and the Kasparov-Karpov matches more. I dont think so. There were certainly quite a number of games worth remembering from these matches.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #246 - 05/25/12 at 23:51:21
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I think the spectators are complaining about the draws themselves, so what would happen if Carlsen were playing instead, and there were the same amount of draws and the same types of draws? From my experience quite a few spectators simply dislike any form of draws, simply because no one wins, and regardless of if either side were very close to winning in a sharp position.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #245 - 05/25/12 at 16:15:35
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I think the main point of interest for the casual chess fan is the personalities involved. The Fischer-Spassky match is the prime example of this, but the Karpov-Korchnoi, Karpov-Kasparov and Kasparov-Kramnik,  and Kramnik-Topalov matches were all especially interesting because of the storylines involved.

Kramnik-Leko wasn't particularly interesting, neither was Kasparov-Short, despite the number of decisive games. 

Kasparov-Kramnik is an excellent example of how even drawn games can be extremely exciting for the casual chess fan. Even Kramnik's Berlin Wall defense was fascinating because of Kasparov's well-earned reputation as the greatest attacking player in history. 

The casual chess fans have been hearing about Magnus Carlsen for years now. They want to see him playing in the World championship. If the name was changed from Gelfand to Carlsen with exactly the same moves made, there would be very few complaints about how boring the match is.
  
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Pantu
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #244 - 05/25/12 at 15:58:42
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...and in the first 12 games they made 3 decisive games with one game famous 50 years later - what Anand and Gelfand could do with 24 games is unknown Smiley  Not to mention Kramnik-Kasparov only managed 2 decisive games in 15, if we are using that as a yardstick.

I'm willing to bet Gelfand's loss will be (in)famous for a while, but not for the good chess reasons!  

Anyway, perhaps it is better to judge the match after it finishes, rather than before?  Suppose Gelfand brilliantly wins the next, Anand the last and then we have a tiebreaker - will everyone still complain about it being boring?  Undecided

(I have to admit that the draws in Botvinnik-Petrosian I mentioned above were the last three games of the match so perhaps shouldn't count.)
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #243 - 05/25/12 at 15:43:38
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I don't think this is quite true. Take your example of Botvinnik - Petrosian 1963; hardly the most feted WC match, but it saw 7 decisive games out of 22, at least two games that are famous 50 years later(!) - games 5 and 18, and quite a lot of dynamic chess. This despite not having $2.5m to play for  Smiley
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #242 - 05/25/12 at 15:25:38
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How about

7. People either don't know or remember what the previous matches were like (seriously, look it up.  Sub 20 move draws aren't a new phenomena.  Botvinnik and Petrosian were so tired out by a 21 move draw that their next two games lasted only 10 moves)
8. These days people can watch the match in real time on the internet rather than finding out the moves the next day in the newspaper(!) so feel more aggrieved when there isn't blood.

I think the match has been quite interesting so far.  Whether that says more about me than the people decrying it as boring is up to others to decide Smiley
  
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chk
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #241 - 05/25/12 at 14:41:39
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Yes, could work both ways!

Anyway, match competition is different than tournaments and tends to produce more draws. Which doesn't really matter imo as the pressure piles up (so we get a different form of excitement).

But one question we can ask is why some of the previous WCh seemed more interesting? Has to do with:
1. the participants?
2. the number of games?
3. evolvement of chess theory (+computers) making preparation (and avoiding opponent's preparation) extremely important?
4. improved defensive skills of top chess players?
5. reduced time limits (per game)?
6. pure coincidence?
7. other?

It is mostly 2-4 & 6 for me..
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #240 - 05/25/12 at 13:43:00
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I have an interesting idea but I am no shure if it its good, maybee it would leed to even more solid play.... How about that both players gets  starting sum for playing the match and  for each game add a sum for a draw and a higher sum for a win?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #239 - 05/25/12 at 10:51:54
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Dink Heckler wrote on 05/25/12 at 10:02:02:

Look at it from another angle: The prize fund is $2.5m; has there been $2.5m of chess being produced? And if not, doesn't that put future purses under pressure?

It's long been my contention that top players undermine themselves economically by playing 'stockmarket chess' (GK). Then people moan like hell about Ilyumzhinov (including, IIRC, Keano; one of the big bulls on this match). But Kirsan didn't come out o f nowhere; he was a necessary consequence of the kind of rubbish being served up by the players - he has had to chip in the cash over the years because the product is unappealing to sponsors. So if you want to big up this turgid product, don't complain about Kirsan; the two go hand in hand.


One could of course claim that Kirsan may be the big reason that chess is unappealing to sponsors... His position feels more and more like one of those billionaires who buy up a football club as their personal project, though he managed to buy the buy the whole sport for probably less than what Chelsea or United would cost.

But you're right that professional players should be more interested in what they deliver in return for appearance fees and prize money. The match feels more like a ˝ million match than a 2˝ million match, and I'm not even sure if the currency of the worth so far is in dollars or kronor...

But to be fair, it's a hard position for Anand to be in, as everybody expects him to win due to the rating, but the rating is based your ability to score well against different players with different ambitions. Man to man vs a lower rated but very strong and experienced player is not easy, and on top of that have the favourite role on your shoulders which makes every draw a small victory for Gelfand.

A match between more level players where both really tries to win would no doubt produce more interesting games. As it is, it's more and more reminiscent of Bayern - Chelsea, once the tiebreak kicks in, it's a disadvantage to be favourite.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #238 - 05/25/12 at 10:02:02
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Look, if you like it, you like it, but no need to portray the naysayers as some sort of rubes who'd be better off watching bullet. 

To my mind, there's been very little chess content. How many games are going to be played over in ten years time? How about one year?

Look at it from another angle: The prize fund is $2.5m; has there been $2.5m of chess being produced? And if not, doesn't that put future purses under pressure?

It's long been my contention that top players undermine themselves economically by playing 'stockmarket chess' (GK). Then people moan like hell about Ilyumzhinov (including, IIRC, Keano; one of the big bulls on this match). But Kirsan didn't come out o f nowhere; he was a necessary consequence of the kind of rubbish being served up by the players - he has had to chip in the cash over the years because the product is unappealing to sponsors. So if you want to big up this turgid product, don't complain about Kirsan; the two go hand in hand.

@Gilchrist, the relevant comparison is not between Tests and T20, but between attractive Test cricket and turgid Test cricket.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #237 - 05/25/12 at 01:03:04
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This reminds me of a football match where after both full time and extra time with no penalties, both players try their best to win but simply cannot because the other is playing too solid, so the match ends in a draw. It is not the fault of either; Gelfand nor Anand play, I would think, as aggressively as Morozevich, Kasparov, Radjabov, or Topalov since both of their styles are simply not as such. Returning to the football analogy, the only way one can decrease the drawing chances is for one team to play crazy: In the last few minutes, establish a 1-4-5 (or 1-3-6?!) formation, or have the goalkeeper advance with the midfielders. Both I would consider extremely risky, and the latter strategy is probably simply insane, but increases winning chances whilst increasing dramatically the losing chances. I doubt both Anand nor Gelfand would try those equivalent types of strategies during their games.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #236 - 05/24/12 at 18:46:30
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Indeed. And even if you did wish to get annoyed then who would it be with?

Anand tried to set up for a long squeeze but Gelfand produced an early novelty which got relatively close to killing the position by force. Entirely rational match play from everyone really.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #235 - 05/24/12 at 18:42:55
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I do not think the spectators understand how much stress and preparation both players require to play under these circumstances, even draws. Would you rather one of them lose badly, as Gelfand did in 17 moves, than have a difficult draw? If so, I think watching online 1 minute chess would suit those spectators better. It reminds me of the Test Cricket vs. T20 argument.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #234 - 05/24/12 at 18:39:12
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Hi All 

Just when you think the match might get interesting we get another turgid draw.

I am in complete agreement with GM Smeardon on Chess Vibes.

Akita
  
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