Poll
Poll closed Question: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand Title Match?
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Anand by 2 or more    
  36 (37.1%)
Gelfand by 2 or more    
  1 (1.0%)
Anand by 1    
  41 (42.3%)
Gelfand by 1    
  9 (9.3%)
Anand in a Tie-break    
  4 (4.1%)
Gelfand in a Tie-break    
  5 (5.2%)
The match will be cancelled.    
  1 (1.0%)




Total votes: 97
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 05/08/12 at 15:52:16 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship? (Read 165357 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #278 - 05/27/12 at 17:42:15
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Stigma wrote on 05/27/12 at 17:38:36:
We surely want to avoid draw odds.

...I quite like "number of wins" if I had to pick one, since it rewards enterprising play,. but you'd still need a backup when that fails to differentiate.


That will fail to differentiate in 100% of drawn matches.

I don't like "white wins" or "black wins" either. 

I don't have a problem with the way matches are decided once they reach a tie-break stage. There just needs to be more game before the tie-break stage is reached. This is especially true when the margin between two top players is as slight as it is now.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #277 - 05/27/12 at 17:38:36
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We surely want to avoid draw odds.

Using rating in any way is also grossly unfair in a match - does anyone deserve a reward because he used to be weaker than his opponent?!

This is enough of a problem in tournaments already, where TPR used as a tiebreaker can in some cases irrationally punish people for being highly-rated. To make it fair you'd have to somehow remove any game played between the players you're trying to tie-break from the calculation, but if that's more than two players it quickly gets complicated.

That said, there is no such thing as the perfect tiebreaker (in chess or in football). For tournaments, I quite like "number of wins" if I have to pick one, since it rewards enterprising play. But you'd still need a backup when that fails to differentiate.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #276 - 05/27/12 at 17:06:23
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The problem with having a tie breaker at the start of the match is that it gives one player draw odds.

This was considered too great an advantage when the defending champion was given draw odds, and it's still too great an advantage.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #275 - 05/27/12 at 15:49:18
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 05/27/12 at 09:21:52:
Quite some time ago, somebody suggested to reverse the order in soccer matches which have to have a winner (like finals) - first do the penalty shooting, and take the result as the tie-break for the regular game. I wonder if something like that might also be a solution for chess: First do some rapid- / blitz- / Armageddon games to break the tie, and then start the regular match. This way it's always that one of the players is trailing and has to play for a win.

I remember seeing the same proposal (maybe from you!) during the candidates matches that led to this match. I liked it then and I like it now.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #274 - 05/27/12 at 14:13:22
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In the past the champion kept hes title if the match was drawn, like in for example in Kramnik-Leko and in many other matches before it. Howerer the practise changed during the Kramnik-Topalov match (or even earlier in FIDE knockout events depending one how one look at it).  However if a champion keeps hes title if match is a draw the champion starts the match with 1 extra point and since the number of games are shorter I will be a greater advantage than in the past.

  
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akita
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #273 - 05/27/12 at 12:32:05
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Hi All

The bottom line surely is that to become World Champion you have to defeat him! He cannot be regarded as a Champion if he has not defeated the present encumbant. Therefore should the match be tied at 6-6 Anand retains his title. In Boxing if a draw is declared the champion retains his title he does not have to box on for around or two more to determine the winner. Just to reiterate to be a champion you must defeat one!!   

Regards

Akita

PS Did Kramnik not retain his title by winning the last game of ther match against Leko and thus drew the match?
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #272 - 05/27/12 at 09:53:12
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Me too. 

Having the tiebreak first really makes a lot of sense - even if the players probably won't like it as they may give away their openings, but that could be fixed by for example a 960 format with each starting position played with both colours.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #271 - 05/27/12 at 09:35:14
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I really like that idea.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #270 - 05/27/12 at 09:21:52
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Quite some time ago, somebody suggested to reverse the order in soccer matches which have to have a winner (like finals) - first do the penalty shooting, and take the result as the tie-break for the regular game. I wonder if something like that might also be a solution for chess: First do some rapid- / blitz- / Armageddon games to break the tie, and then start the regular match. This way it's always that one of the players is trailing and has do play for a win. If he doesn't manage within 12 games or so, imo one could claim more well-founded that the better player has won than if the tie-break follows the regular match, when a single slip can cost the WC title and 500.000 USD.

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #269 - 05/27/12 at 09:11:59
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'If the match ends in a tie, the title goes to the highest rated player not playing in the match.'

Problem solved.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #268 - 05/27/12 at 09:11:07
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Does that not mean that all of the lower rated players will win the tournaments?


Only if the higher rated let's them - and we're talking about matches, not tournaments.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #267 - 05/27/12 at 09:00:38
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Does that not mean that all of the lower rated players will win the tournaments? Then I would think that in the case that if the higher rated players do not play, then the lower rated players will play even lower rated players. Does that mean that a 2200 could win a strong league tournament by this manner?

And the lower rated player does not even need to try to win; the lower rated player can try to find a perpetual check in an equal position, so that would mean perpetual check = win. It also means stalemate = win, so I suppose that means that the lower rated player will focus preparation whilst noting that key positions will include preparing lines with perpetual check and entering quite a worse endgame, if there is a chance to not lose a position with a material disadvantage and then play for a stalemate (which would in such a tournament be equivalent to a win if draws equal wins for the lower rated player). But how does a 2300 playing for a draw (solely for a draw; not even trying to win, only trying to draw) against a 2700 justify a win? The 2300's entire preparation might consist of, "What position can I enter so that I can draw? I do not want to win, but draw since if I draw I win."

Also there would be a very difficult phenomenom: how to prevent players from losing games on purpose in previous tournaments before this major league tournament to lower their rating to enter such a tournament, then play for draws against "higher" rated opponnets? For example, a 2500 who deliberately loses in previous open tournaments to become 2300 then plays against a 2301 and tries to draw all opponents > 2301, which would be quite easy since the real rating of that player would be 2500? Then this "2300" would win the tournament with the draws?
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #266 - 05/27/12 at 08:47:34
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If the lower rated player wins a draw, that would be supremely unfair, since it is difficult to win if both players prepare extremely deeply.


Life's not fair. It is difficult to win - especially if you don't try. 

If the lower rated manages to draw all 12 twelve games vs a higher rated (even if it's just  by 0.1 elo) he has performed better so why shouldn't he win? One side has to lose something with the draw, or both will play for it. Compare with football, where the team with most away goals goes through in the event of a tie.

There could be other tie factors kicking in as the match develops to make it more dynamic, for example if you win with Black and the other equalises with White, then the Black win decides instead of rating.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #265 - 05/27/12 at 08:40:58
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Hi All

Tedious or what this World Championship. What must the sponsers be thinking. I know " Never again"!

The point I would like to make is this. To be a World Chess Champion you have to defeat yes defeat the present champion not draw the classical part of the match with him.

The World Championship  to be decided by Rapid or Blitz play shows in my view how much or how little FIDE really think about Classical Chess. The whole things a farce. 

However, there is one saving grace and that is if Anand can beat Gelfand. It's clear to me that Ananad is the superior player but he is playing excessively cautiously. It's as though he knows he can beat this guy but respects him enough not to take too many liberties. Can you emagine if Gelfand wins it on a Blitz shoot out!! Ridiculous!!

Akita
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #264 - 05/27/12 at 07:56:09
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If the lower rated player wins a draw, that would be supremely unfair, since it is difficult to win if both players prepare extremely deeply. And what happens for example, 2736 vs. 2737? The 2736 wins because of drawing a 2737? It would simply cause both players to reach equal positions where it is very difficult for either play to win, and then the higher rated player will play insanely and lose, or the lower rated player will simply win the series easily, especially if the lower rated prepares deeply. 

And stalemate positions--a 2500 gets a stalemate against a 2800 because the 2500 lost a piece in the endgame due to tactics or a blunder, but somehow achieves a stalemate and instead of deserving a loss, is rewarded with a win. 

Another topic is perpetual check: if the 2500 finds some attacking position and sacrified a rook or a knight and cannot continue attack but only has, for example, a choice between a perpetual check and a losing position, must choose the perpetual check to avoid this loss. Then somehow by playing a perpetual check to avoid losing the game, is rewarded with a win instead...

I think I would be very scared of playing in such a tournament, unless I were one of the lowest rated players.

  

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