ChessPub Forum - Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics

whitecraw Junior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 74 Joined: 11/05/03 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #12 - 06/04/12 at 15:34:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kotov - Think Like a Grandmaster !!!


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Girkassa

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Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics
Reply #11 - 06/03/12 at 18:28:15

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A very nice example of "dense"/"bush" tactics, Zwischenzugzwang! I got it right (confirmed by Rybka afterwards), but it took me at least 15 minutes to get all the lines right.

The best example from my own practice must be the following position.

White to move and win. If you can find the best move for White and have all the lines right in less than 30 minutes, you made a better job than I did during the game.

I spent 30 minutes, but was still proud when I found out Fritz needed 2 minutes to find the win. That was back in 2004, but Rybka 4 still needs 20 seconds to show the +- sign (OK, that's on my mini-PC, but still...).

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Zwischenzugzwang

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Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics
Reply #10 - 06/03/12 at 15:55:09

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Analyzing one of my own games, I reached the following position, which is, I think, a very nice example of short and ugly "bush-tactics":

White would love to exchange Black's king's bishop - can he play 17.Nc3-a4, or is Black's threat of Nc4xe3 too strong? (Of course, Rybka gives a quick answer, but you might want to try it "by hand"!

)

Probably you have similar examples at hand. Would be nice if you post some of them!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?

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dfan God Member Offline "When you see a bad move, look for a better one" Posts: 766 Location: Boston Joined: 10/04/05	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #9 - 05/17/12 at 12:43:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 05/17/12 at 11:32:41: He also adviced me to write down the variations when I'm doing training, and it works insofar as then I've no problems to do the calculations without loosing orientation. He promised me that after some time, I would not need the writing-down any more (else it wouldn't make sense anyway, of course), so I hope that's true. I'm sure others have tried that before - what are your experiences? I'm a big fan of writing down variations when solving problems. I'm working through the Yusupov course this way (as he tells you to do). Here are some points I like about it: 1) It helps you organize your thoughts 2) Its benefits can carry over to actual games if you imagine yourself writing down variations in a "virtual notebook" 3) It makes it easier to compare your answer against the solution and see exactly what you saw and missed. The main downside is that it can be a bit of a crutch; for example I have an embarrassingly hard time calculating pawn races in real life but writing down the moves makes it trivial.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #8 - 05/17/12 at 11:32:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thank you so far! A friend has lend me Kotov's "Kak statj grossmejsterom" (I wonder if that's "Play like a Grandmaster"?) and Dvorezkijs "Shkola wysshewo masterstwa" (that should be "School of Chess Excellence"). As those titles indicate, he gave me the Russian editions (he's from Armenia), but I'll try to work through them (at least the diagrams are easy to read ). He also adviced me to write down the variations when I'm doing training, and it works insofar as then I've no problems to do the calculations without loosing orientation. He promised me that after some time, I would not need the writing-down any more (else it wouldn't make sense anyway, of course), so I hope that's true. I'm sure others have tried that before - what are your experiences? Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #7 - 05/14/12 at 17:18:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	There is some material in Attack and Defence, but more in School of Chess Excellence 2 - Tactical Play. However, none of these are really about tactics the way you seem to be interested in it. More general tactics training I'd say.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #6 - 05/14/12 at 16:23:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I find it amusing that after all the derision heaped on Kotov for talking about trees and shrubs of analysis that even now his basic idea is still alive and well. Yeah, I know: we don't think like trees or shrubs. But the analogy was apt enough to help thousands of chess players.


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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #5 - 05/14/12 at 10:02:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 05/14/12 at 07:15:25: Hello everybody! With "long tactics" I mean that sort of tactics one normally finds in puzzle books, where one has to find a somewhat surprising first move and then has to calculate some more or less forced variations until mate or material gain, whereas "dense tactics" are characterized not so much by hard-to-find moves and surprising ideas, but rather by a lot of move order (or rather "capture order") issues, pins and counter-pins, and the one or other zwischenzug. Talking in botanics, whereas "long tactics" are somehow like a tall, elegant pine tree, "dense tactics" are like a short, ugly shrub. I have a nice example in mind, unfortunately I cannot find it at the moment, but I'm sure you got my idea. I find I have much more problems calculating dense tactics than long tactics. Unfortunately, most books dealing with tactics seem to be rather concerned with the latter than with the former, maybe because dense tactics are considered too trivial or not spectacular enough for the authors? How best to train dense tactics? Are there any books out there that deal mainly with that topic? Thanks for your advice! Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang Forcing Chess Moves by Charles Hertan has plenty of these 'dense' tactics you describe. It also happens to cover long tactics very well!

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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #4 - 05/14/12 at 08:54:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	That would be nice, thx!

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #3 - 05/14/12 at 08:51:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry, can't remember what books from Dvoretsky. I can have a look at the ones I have when I get home.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #2 - 05/14/12 at 08:05:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Which is /are the relevant book(s) by Dvoretzky?

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics Reply #1 - 05/14/12 at 07:58:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	EDIT: Removed quote This topic was described and discussed in Kotov's Play Like A Grandmaster (or was it another title?). I think Dvoretsky also has dealt with this extensively.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Dense Tactics vs. Long Tactics 05/14/12 at 07:15:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello everybody! With "long tactics" I mean that sort of tactics one normally finds in puzzle books, where one has to find a somewhat surprising first move and then has to calculate some more or less forced variations until mate or material gain, whereas "dense tactics" are characterized not so much by hard-to-find moves and surprising ideas, but rather by a lot of move order (or rather "capture order") issues, pins and counter-pins, and the one or other zwischenzug. Talking in botanics, whereas "long tactics" are somehow like a tall, elegant pine tree, "dense tactics" are like a short, ugly shrub. I have a nice example in mind, unfortunately I cannot find it at the moment, but I'm sure you got my idea. I find I have much more problems calculating dense tactics than long tactics. Unfortunately, most books dealing with tactics seem to be rather concerned with the latter than with the former, maybe because dense tactics are considered too trivial or not spectacular enough for the authors? How best to train dense tactics? Are there any books out there that deal mainly with that topic? Thanks for your advice! Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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