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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best tie-break schemes for matches? (Read 9473 times)
Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #18 - 05/31/12 at 23:30:47
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yeah, a huge part would be whoever has the best sense of ten seconds in time while they're trying to play. And whoever can shape all their decision-making into the exact 10 second time frame. 5 mins would be much better, perhaps with 2-3 second increment. 
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #17 - 05/31/12 at 21:47:33
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I do not understand to what you are referring to regarding lightning chess. Do you mean each player has 0 minutes but a 10 second increment thereafter the first move (0 10), or a time control of 1 1 or 1 10? This format may suit spectators, but for both the contendees for World Championship to play according to this time control would be extremely stressful and demanding.
  

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dfan
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #16 - 05/31/12 at 15:11:24
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I find chess to be a less interesting game when time management is removed.
  
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GeneM
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #15 - 05/31/12 at 05:58:06
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Quote from: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1336440203/360

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/30/12 at 15:49:30:
I've already seen the narrative on a couple of sites that Gelfand lost because he got into time trouble. Gelfand got in to time trouble because his opponent played extremely sharp, complicated chess.

LIGHTNING CHESS

Maybe Lightning chess would be a better tie-breaker than Rapid / Blitz etc. In Blitz the players have to **MANAGE** their sparse amount of time over a series of numerous turns.

Lightning gives each player 10 seconds per turn (or choose your favorite number of seconds).
Lightning has the advantage over Blitz of reducing the role of **LUCK**.
Early in a Blitz game the players have to **GUESS** whether the game will be won by tactics in the middlegame versus by a long difficult extra pawn in an endgame --- the latter requiring much more thinking time. Where there is guesswork there is luck. Soccer games last 90 minutes, but the number of move-pairs in a chess games varies wildly.

Lightning removes this time management guesswork source of luck; and prevents either player from winning based on time management.

The original purpose of the chess clock was to end the abuse by some players who persistently took unreasonably long to move on the honor system. Ideally the clock never does any more than that when more can be avoided. Lightning avoids more than does Blitz.

Lightning is also more fun to observe live than is Blitz, because you can actually follow Lightning as a spectator; and it has a pleasing cadence. (Also, Lightning has fewer problems of knocked over pieces and related disputes too.)

.
  

GeneM , CastleLong.com , FRC-chess960
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #14 - 05/28/12 at 17:27:18
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FischerTal wrote on 05/28/12 at 09:35:44:
try to sort out these Armageddon games where black has odds of a draw  in return for a time penalty,

My impression is these sort of games have favoured black as maybe white has not been getting a big enough head start in time. Does anyone have any objective statistics on this though?

At some high level chess events which have resorted to Armageddon Chess, the rules have excluded bidding-for-time by the two players.
This exclusion seems inept to me.

By what stone tablet from God was it revealed that 6 minutes for White -to- 5 minutes for Black was the proper balance for draw odds?

.
  

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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #13 - 05/28/12 at 14:33:39
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Surely the solution is to return to 24 game World Championship matches with the holder retaining the title in the event of a 12-12 tie. Why fix something that worked ? It would also avoid the non-event this match has been. Without having checked the statistics, has there ever been a WC match with more short draws or with more symmetrical pawn structures ? Not a good advert for the game. If the players fees are a major part of the staging cost, surely after this even the top players would agree to the longer matches with identical or very similar fees, for the sake of the game.
  
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #12 - 05/28/12 at 09:42:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/28/12 at 04:05:15:
I will keep an eye on this thread. 

I know the OP raised the question of chess960 in this thread even tho he already has started another thread on the same subject.

If this thread proves redundant, it will be deleted. If it continues to discuss chess960, it will be merged into the other thread.


It seems several entries from "Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?" really belongs here instead, as they discuss the pretiebreak idea.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #11 - 05/28/12 at 09:40:10
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FischerTal wrote on 05/28/12 at 09:35:44:
Have the tie break first, so then effectively one player is game behind, but psychologically it feels better that the final game will be a longer game.
...

Very much agreed, and not only for the players during the match but also for the reputation of the new champion.
  

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FischerTal
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #10 - 05/28/12 at 09:35:44
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Have the tie break first, so then effectively one player is game behind, but psychologically it feels better that the final game will be a longer game.

Also try to sort out these Armageddon games where black has odds of a draw  in return for a time penalty, 

My impression is these sort of games have favoured black as maybe white has not been getting a big enough head start in time. Does anyone have any objective statistics on this though?

I prefer the blitz games to have increment if they are tie breaking something important, though I personally prefer to play without increment in typical blitz games 'for fun'
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #9 - 05/28/12 at 09:32:36
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GeneM wrote on 05/27/12 at 21:09:21:
...
Draw odds are bad. Your plan amounts to earned draw odds; but it still distorts the real game, encouraging one player to make foolish moves hoping for a blunder in reply.
...

(I hope you don't mind that I've taken the colour out of the quote.)

I heavily doubt that. Look at the "old" WC matches with 24 games and the defender keeping his title in case of a draw. So he already had draw odds. Did that create those "foolish moves", or didn't it rather create such masterpieces as the 16th game of Karpov vs. Kasparov in 1985? The suggestion of first having a tie-break and then start the regular match would create exactly the same match situation: You've always one player trailing. But this way it doesn't give the defender an inbuilt advantage.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #8 - 05/28/12 at 09:00:02
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Or perhaps the best of five blitz games at a time control of 5 0. And the challenger must have a positive score against the defender to gain the championship title, since the challenger must prove that is able to win against the title holder, not the title holder should have to win against every contestant.
  

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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #7 - 05/28/12 at 08:11:02
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No tie-break is the best in WC matches. The old champion stays champion if the challenger cannot get better in a match.

In elimination matches the players should continue with 15 minute games till the first victory in a playing scheme w-b-b-w-w- .... No armageddon. It's worse than tossing coins.
  

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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #6 - 05/28/12 at 05:43:28
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toss of a coin. Entices stronger player to avoid leaving his fate to lady luck

Edit - this was a serious suggestion but in terms of determining the World ch the only fair way would be to keep playing classical chess until a player scores 1.5/2 with Black and White. Problem is its not practical in this day and age where our heroes have to run off somewhere else for their latest money deal.
  
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #5 - 05/28/12 at 04:05:15
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I will keep an eye on this thread. 

I know the OP raised the question of chess960 in this thread even tho he already has started another thread on the same subject.

If this thread proves redundant, it will be deleted. If it continues to discuss chess960, it will be merged into the other thread.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Best tie-break schemes for matches?
Reply #4 - 05/27/12 at 22:39:00
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Chess is not and will never be a draw even on the super gm level. It takes over a decade of hard study to have that level of knowledge and technique. This idea that you could just routinely multiply the amount of knowledge you'd have to know by 1000 is just ridiculous... I thought we established that in the other thread. Even if the same amount of theory were learned, it would be a thousand times less powerful than chess, by definition.   

And this website is about chess, not chess 960, which is a completely different game and off topic here.
  
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