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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 21173 times)
sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #124 - 10/27/12 at 00:11:07
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Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 20:36:17:
Well, in your line black has a better continuation, such as 13...Nxe4, as demonstrated in this high quality correspondence chess game:



I think that White has to sacrifice the exchange to have any chance of a plus:

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6 10.O-O Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Qxe4 Re8 15.Qd3 Qc7 16.g3 Rbd8 17.c3 g6 18.Qc2 f5 19.Bg2 Be2 20.d3! Bxf1 21.Bxf1 f4 22.b4 Nb7 23.d4 Rf8 24.Kg2 

White has a solid four to two pawn majority & the better pawn structure. Isn't White slightly better here?
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #123 - 10/26/12 at 20:36:17
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Well, in your line black has a better continuation, such as 13...Nxe4, as demonstrated in this high quality correspondence chess game:

  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #122 - 10/26/12 at 20:35:19
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sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 20:06:37:

10.O-O! Bg4 11.Qg3! e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Re8 14.Qg5! Nxe4 15.Qxg4 Rb4 16.Bxe4 R4xe4 17.Qf3 Re1 18.g3! Qd7 19.Qg2 +/=?


I notice that a Yearbook article on this stuff a few years ago had 13...Nxe4 14. Bxe4 Re8 as leading to an edge for Black.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #121 - 10/26/12 at 20:06:37
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Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


Whenever I see a move like 9...Bd6 I'd look at every developing move before I would consider 10.h3. Here is a sharp attempt by Black to attack:

10.O-O! Bg4 11.Qg3! e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Re8 14.Qg5! Nxe4 15.Qxg4 Rb4 16.Bxe4 R4xe4 17.Qf3 Re1 18.g3! Qd7 19.Qg2 +/=?
  
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Vass
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #120 - 10/26/12 at 15:58:11
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sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #119 - 10/26/12 at 15:25:36
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Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #118 - 10/26/12 at 14:11:01
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Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


The postal games are looking brutal for White; practical results clearly favor Black, but it is clear that some lines are better than others. For example what doesn't work is an early Rb8/h6, a natural move order that seems to favor White. Since 8...h6 allows 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Ba4! is +/=, any other lines that give White a decent game seem to be rare.

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.b3! & now either 11...Nf4 12.Bb2  or 11...Be6 12.Qh5 or 11...Qc7 12.Ng3 +/=
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #117 - 10/26/12 at 11:18:12
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Didn't you really get the point? Analyzing with engines is poor judgement if you don't add human knowledge.
  

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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #116 - 10/25/12 at 15:00:09
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Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


First I was told to download Houdini 1.5 on line because Fritz 12 wasn't adequate, so I bought Houdini 2 and this still isn't enough! You're moving the goal posts. I'll continue to provide analysis and leave it up to post members whether or not to read it. 

After looking at several hundred games in the c58 system, I only saw two or three games in the 8.Qf3 lines of sizeable interest; I'll check out the correspondence games on Houdini's data base but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'll try to get some more modern books on the TKD; the older ones don't really interest me. Any pre-2000 books, at best, may contain some "ideas", but when you're analyzing with modern computers, with the exception of a few games, none of the games will be "best play" for both sides for more than a few moves.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #115 - 10/25/12 at 09:32:36
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@sloughter
If you really want to investigate the Two Knights Defense, first check out the correspondence chess games together with the TKD games of the best OTB players through the years. And it will be not enough.. Check out some books too, starting from the older sources like Panov/Estrin or whatever.. Next you can find some computer TKD games played on longer time controls.. You may even set a match on a long time control between various engines in the lines you're interested in. Then collect a good database with all the games you find in your researches. Make a ctg-book with all the moves! Mark the good moves in it with a green colour, bad moves in red and so on.. Use the statistics that they produce. And then, at last, feel free to use the engines at greater search depth to find some new moves in lines you're interested in!
Posting some long computer lines is not appropriate for a decent analysis, you know.. If you're really interested in a discussion you'll have to post a short line and then discuss the possible continuations here and there. We tried to show opinions once or twice, but you just ignored us posting more computer lines.. That's why we withdrew from the discussion. I'm sure now nobody is following your long lines knowing that they are not of proved reliability.
By the way, computers are not that really good in the opening phase of the game and you don't have to trust their evaluations in full. That's why the engines' authors use human-made opening books for their own engines.
Even the latest (and the strongest for now) Houdini 3 engine will give you that 4.d3 is better than 4.Ng5 without a decent opening book. Make your own conclusions!  Wink
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #114 - 10/25/12 at 08:50:34
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@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #113 - 10/25/12 at 07:19:41
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sloughter wrote on 10/25/12 at 03:39:31:
tony37 wrote on 10/23/12 at 21:36:57:
sloughter wrote on 10/23/12 at 20:53:42:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nf3 N = to +/= White was clearly better in this line in the game Moody-Fritz 12.

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 & I achieved a plus against Fritz 12 in the 8...cxb5, 8...Rb8, 8...Be7, and 8...h6 lines. These illustrate some of the problems that Black will have equalizing.

If you don't want to make yourself a laughing stock, you could start by using a better engine than Fritz 12


Agreed: Here is analysis from Houdini 2

After 8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Ba4! Be7 11.O-O O-O 12.d3 Rb8 13.Nbc3 f5 14.Ng3 Be6 (For a long time Houdini preferred f4) 15.Qe2 Bd6 16.Re1 Rb4 17.Bb3 Qd7 18.Bd2 Nxb3 19.axb3 Rb7 20.Rfc1 & Black has the Bishops, White the pawn. 

Houdini gives the nod to White. Without analyzing the other variations in detail, it is highly unlikely that White can achieve a plus since this is the only variation where White gains a tempo as I define development by retreating the Bishop to a4. The other retreats on the diagonal, Bd3 & Be2 don't gain time.

None of the other retreats gain a tempo so Black should, at a minimum, have full compensation  for the pawn but I'll see what I can find.

What was not obvious to me was that Black could be equal or better in the other variations and still stand worse i.e. I didn't realize I could consistently outplay Fritz 12 in the middle game and believed incorrectly that the starting positions were better for White.


Houdini 2 is yesterday's engine. Houdini 3 is the real deal.  Wink
  

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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #112 - 10/25/12 at 04:22:26
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tony37 wrote on 10/23/12 at 21:36:57:
sloughter wrote on 10/23/12 at 20:53:42:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nf3 N = to +/= White was clearly better in this line in the game Moody-Fritz 12.

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 & I achieved a plus against Fritz 12 in the 8...cxb5, 8...Rb8, 8...Be7, and 8...h6 lines. These illustrate some of the problems that Black will have equalizing.

If you don't want to make yourself a laughing stock, you could start by using a better engine than Fritz 12


According to Houdini one of the 8.Qf3 Be7 lines looks like it may lead to a draw by repetition so Black has at least equality:

9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Ng3 Nb4 12.Bf5! Bxf5! 13.Qxf5 g6 14.Qxe5 Nxc2ch 15.Kd1 f6 16.Qe4 Nxa1 17.Qxg6ch = I don't trust the variations where Black doubles the d-pawns.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #111 - 10/25/12 at 03:39:31
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tony37 wrote on 10/23/12 at 21:36:57:
sloughter wrote on 10/23/12 at 20:53:42:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nf3 N = to +/= White was clearly better in this line in the game Moody-Fritz 12.

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 & I achieved a plus against Fritz 12 in the 8...cxb5, 8...Rb8, 8...Be7, and 8...h6 lines. These illustrate some of the problems that Black will have equalizing.

If you don't want to make yourself a laughing stock, you could start by using a better engine than Fritz 12


Agreed: Here is analysis from Houdini 2

After 8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Ba4! Be7 11.O-O O-O 12.d3 Rb8 13.Nbc3 f5 14.Ng3 Be6 (For a long time Houdini preferred f4) 15.Qe2 Bd6 16.Re1 Rb4 17.Bb3 Qd7 18.Bd2 Nxb3 19.axb3 Rb7 20.Rfc1 & Black has the Bishops, White the pawn. 

Houdini gives the nod to White. Without analyzing the other variations in detail, it is highly unlikely that White can achieve a plus since this is the only variation where White gains a tempo as I define development by retreating the Bishop to a4. The other retreats on the diagonal, Bd3 & Be2 don't gain time.

None of the other retreats gain a tempo so Black should, at a minimum, have full compensation  for the pawn but I'll see what I can find.

What was not obvious to me was that Black could be equal or better in the other variations and still stand worse i.e. I didn't realize I could consistently outplay Fritz 12 in the middle game and believed incorrectly that the starting positions were better for White.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #110 - 10/25/12 at 00:24:52
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I'd telk that kid that for the balance of his chess education, he should go find sloughter.
  

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