(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish › 2 Knights › C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
(Moderators: trw, Smyslov_Fan, Jupp53)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 13
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 21211 times)
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #139 - 10/29/12 at 03:05:38
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Here is another exchange sac variation where White is better.

8.Qf3 cxb5 9.Qxa8 Qd7 10.Qf3 Bb7 11.Qe2 Bxg2 12.Rg1 Bb7 12.Qxe5ch Be7 13.d3 O-O 14.Nc3 Bd6 15.Qxb5 Qxb5 16.Nxb5 Bxh2 17.Rf1 Bg2 18.Nd4 Nd5 19.Be3 Rb8 20.O-O-O +/-
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #138 - 10/29/12 at 02:25:07
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


White has to play precisely in the exchange sac variation. Here he consolidates quickly:

8.Qf3 cxb5 9.Qxa8 Qd7 10.Qf3 Bb7 11.Qe2 Be7 12.Nf3! Bxf3 13.Qxf3 O-O 14.O-O Nc6 (Rc8 15.Qd1 Qc6 16.d3 Qxc2 17.Nc3 Qxd1 18.Rd1 +/-) 15.d3 Nd4 16.Qd1 +/-
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #137 - 10/29/12 at 01:47:09
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


One subvariation of the exchange sac variation superficially looks good but can be refuted easily.

8.Qf3 cxb5? 9.Qxa8 Nb7?! 10.d4 exd4 11.O-O +/-
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #136 - 10/29/12 at 00:55:33
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


In a main line for Black White gains a tempo over every other line except 8...h6 because White can play 9.Ba4!

8.Qf3 Qc7?! 9.Ba4! (+/=) Here is an attempt by Black to  play aggressively:

9...Bg4 10.Qg3 Be7 11.O-O O-O 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nge4 Nxe4 14.Nxe4 f5 15.d4! +/=
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #135 - 10/29/12 at 00:26:15
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Occasionally computers find playable innovations---here however the computers "idea" has a fatal flaw.

8.Qf3 Qd5?! (Many players would say, "Oh good, I can exchange into an "endgame" with an extra pawn" not realizing that this is a Queenless middlegame and that 9.Qxd5 allows cxd5; Black may even be better.

9.Be2! e4?! 10.Qg3 Bd6 11.Qh4 h6 12.d3! exd3 13.Nc3 Qe5 14.Nf3 Qe7 15.cxd3 White has a solid extra pawn and good development where the Queen "hits" by Black fail to equalize.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #134 - 10/29/12 at 00:07:47
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Here White sacs a pawn for a highly favorable endgame. Just compare the respective pawn structures:

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Be7?! (Bd6 is much better---see earlier post) 10.b3 Bg4?! 11.Qg3 Rb4 12.f3! h6?! 13.Nxf7! Kxf7 14.fxg4 Rxg4 15.Qh3 Qd5 16.Nc3 Qxg2 17.Qxg2 Rxg2 18.Bb2 Rd8 19.O-O-O +/=
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #133 - 10/28/12 at 23:34:46
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Here again White sacs a piece for the initiative:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Ng3 O-O 12.Bf5 Ba6 13.d3 Rb8 14.Nc3 g6?! 15.Be4 Nxc3 16.bxc3 f5?! 17.Bxf5 gxf5 18.Nxf5 Bg5 19.Qg4 Qf6 20.Nxh6ch Qxh6 21.Bxg5 Qg6 22.h4 Rb2 23.Rc1 Bxd3! 24.cxd3 Rfxf2 25.Rf1 Rxg2 26.Qc8ch Kh7 27.Qd7ch Qg7 28.Qf5ch +/=
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #132 - 10/28/12 at 22:45:59
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Here White avoids doubled pawns and both Houdini and Fritz 12 favor White:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Ng3 O-O 12.Bf5 Bb7 13.d3! Nf4 14.O-O g6?! (Black has to improve here)15.Nc3! Bg5 16.b4! Qd4 17.Nce4 Qxb4 18.Bd2 Qa4 19.Qg4 +/=

Unlike the other Be7 lines White has the initiative.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #131 - 10/28/12 at 19:31:22
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Once Black doubles White's d-pawns the position looks pretty equal. I can't evaluate the following endgame---neither can the computers so I leave it to post members to provide guidance:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Ng3 O-O 12.O-O Nb4 13.Re1 Nxd3 14.cxd3 f6 15.b3 Qd4 16.Nc3 Rd8 17.Nf5 Bxf5 18.Qxf5 Qxd3 19.Ne4 Qd7 20.Qg6 Qe8 21.Qxe8 Rxe8 = or +/=?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #130 - 10/28/12 at 18:36:16
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


Black cannot afford inferior play in the 8...Be7 system:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Ng3 Nf4?! 12.Bf5 Bb7 (Ne6 13.Bxe6 +/=) 13.Ne2 g6 14.Nxf4 exf4 15.Bd3 O-O 16.O-O Bd6 17.Nc3 Re8 18.Rb1 c5 19.Be4 Rxe4! 20.Nxe4 f5 21.Qh3 fxe4 22.Qe6ch Kf8 (Kg7 23.b4! +/-)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #129 - 10/28/12 at 16:46:39
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool

 
13.g4! is forced to delay f5. While exhaustive analysis is required, here a few move orders that favor White:

13...Qg5 14.Nc3 f5 15.Bxf5 Bxf5 16.gxf5 Rxf5 17.Qg4 Qxg4 18.hxg4 +/=

or 13...Nb7 14.Nc3 Nc5 15.b3 Nxe4 (Ne6 16.Bb2 Nd4 17.Qd3 Be6 18.Ne2 +/=) 16.Nxe4 f5 17.gxf5 Bxf5 18.Bb2 Bc7 19.O-O-O Rb4 (Qd5 20.Rhe1 +/=) 20.c4 +/=
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #128 - 10/27/12 at 16:48:56
Post Tools
The aforementioned article had 13. Ngxe4 Re8 (rather than 13...Nxe4) 14. f3 Nd5 leading to good things for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #127 - 10/27/12 at 16:39:59
Post Tools
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 20:06:37:
Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


Whenever I see a move like 9...Bd6 I'd look at every developing move before I would consider 10.h3. Here is a sharp attempt by Black to attack:

10.O-O! Bg4 11.Qg3! e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Re8 14.Qg5! Nxe4 15.Qxg4 Rb4 16.Bxe4 R4xe4 17.Qf3 Re1 18.g3! Qd7 19.Qg2 +/=?


The earlier post had the wrong move order:

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6 10.Nc3! Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Ngxe4 Nxe4 14.Nxe4 Re8 15.f3! Bc8 16.g4 f5 17.gxf5 Bxf5 18.b3 +/=
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sloughter
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Location: schoharie
Joined: 12/29/08
Gender: Male
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #126 - 10/27/12 at 02:50:55
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 10/27/12 at 02:44:45:
The aforementioned article thought 15. Qd3 would be a mistake leading to a clear advantage for Black after 15...Rb4.


Correct
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #125 - 10/27/12 at 02:44:45
Post Tools
The aforementioned article thought 15. Qd3 would be a mistake leading to a clear advantage for Black after 15...Rb4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 13
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge