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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 21188 times)
sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #184 - 12/14/12 at 14:15:08
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*One of the sharpest variations in the 8.Qf3 is the “positional” way to play against 8.Qf3 Be7 and that is 9.Be2?! Black now can drive back the Knight on g5 without the need for either h6 or g6. As compensation White can advance his d-pawn without need to reposition his Bishop. The variations are complex and difficult to calculate with any certainty. Black could try 9…h6 (see next post) but we prefer 9.Be2 O-O 10.O-O Nd5 11.Nh3 More or less forced because of the threat of f5. 11…f5 12.d3 At this point I let Fritz 12 and Houdini crunch for 8 hours. Fritz got out to a depth of 24 and suggested as best for both sides: 

12…Rf6 13.Nd2 Rg6 14.Nc4 e4 15.Qh5 =
                                                         
or 12…Rb8 13.Nc3 Re8 14.Nxd5 cxd5 15.d4 Nc6 =

Houdini suggests                                 

12...Rb8 13.Nc3 Nf6 14.a3 c5 =
                                                          
or 12...Rf6 13.Nc3 Rg6 14.Nxd5 cxd5 =
                                                          
or 12...Be6 13.Nc3 Rb8 14.Nxd5 Bxd5 =

What seems clear is that there is no knock out blow for either player. Since there are no obvious tactical shots the position affords great scope for original play.

  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #183 - 12/09/12 at 23:48:35
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The general consensus is that White's only hope in the 8.Qf3 system is after 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3. Here White gets at least equality and maybe more:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Nc3 h6 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Ng3 Nb4 13.Nf5 Bg5 14.h4 Nxd3ch 15.cxd3 Be7 16.b3! Bxf5 17.Qxf5 & White is slightly better. By eliminating the Queen Bishop, this allows the Rook to come into play on the h-file where it can defend the d3 pawn and engage in Kingside pressure. It is always dangerous for Black to snatch the pawn on h4 because then White steps to f1 with good prospects for a Kingside attack.

Black can hardly avoid exchanging Bishop for Knight e.g. 16.b3 Nb7? 17.Nxe7ch Qxe7 18.Qxc6 +/=

or 16.b3 Re8 17.Bb2 Qd7 18.Nxe7ch Qxe7 19.g4! +/-
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #182 - 12/06/12 at 13:26:04
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There are a number of high level tests of 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 

In the three games presented here, only one seems to lead to a small advantage White. In the other two games, Black was able to equalize:

Nickel,Arno (2606) - Butnorius,Algimantas (2605) [C58]
Champions League 2007 A ICCF, 01.09.2007

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.d4 f5 12.Nec3 Nb4 13.Na3 Qxd4 14.0-0 0-0 15.Rd1 Qb6 16.Nc4 Nxc4 17.Bxc4+ Kh8 18.Qe2! 

This gives White a slight plus based on his superior Queenside prospects. In the ensuing endgame, White was able to push his Queenside pawns successfully and use the advanced pawns to create an attack on his opponent’s King despite sparse material. For this reason we prefer this move order to either: 

Enescu,Constantin (2413) - Berecz,Gavril (2288)  White avoided simplification with 18.Bb3 Na6 19.Qh5 Qc7 20.a3 g6 21.Qe2 Nc5 22.Bh6 Rf6 ½-½

Lohse,Martin(DEN)IM (2320) - Lueddeckens,Hans Peter(GER) (2350) White snatched the a-pawn prematurely with 14.Be3?! Qd6 15.Bxa7 Rb7 16.Be3 O-O 17.O-O f4 18.Bc1 Bf5 & Black has equalized) 

Ba6 19.Bxa6 Qxa6 20.Qxa6 Nxa6 21.Rd7 Bf6 22.a3!  Nc5 23.Rd6! (Stronger than the obvious 23.Rxa7; White needs to deny the Knight the d4 square i.e. Ne6/Nd4) Rfd8 24.Rxc6 Ne4 25.Be3 Nxc3 26.bxc3 Rd7 (It is no better to play 26…Rb2 27.Bxa7 +/=) 27.g3 (Preventing f4 and giving the King luft) Kg8 28.a4 Kf7 29.a5 g5 30.Bc5 h5! (Black has to create Kingside threats) 31.Kg2 Rb2 32.a6! Be7?! 33.Re1 Bf6 34.c4 e4 35.Be3 h4 36.Rc1! Rb8 37.c5 Rg8 38.Rd6 Rc7 39.c3 Be7 40.Rd5 Ke6 41.c4 Rc6 42.Re1 h3+ (Desperation) 43.Kxh3 g4+ 44.Kg2 Rgc8 45.Rb1 Rxa6 46.c6! Raxc6 47.Rbb5 a6 48.Re5+ Kd7 49.Rb1! Rxc4 50.Rd1+ Ke8 51.Rdd5 R8c6 52.Rxf5 Rg6 53.Rfe5 Kf7 54.Rd7 Re6 55.Rh5 1-0
 


  
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TonyRo
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #181 - 12/05/12 at 19:33:07
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In a serious correspondence tournament, my moves are typically more aligned with the unit of days.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #180 - 12/05/12 at 07:19:18
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Bibs wrote on 12/05/12 at 02:35:57:
TonyRo wrote on 12/03/12 at 18:37:39:
I have no comments on the analysis, but I did get a great chuckle at the notion of "correspondence level" being 15 min/move.


How does that work then? 
Surely that requires a couple of weeks without sleep.

Pretty much so.  Sad
As for myself, I'll never do it again. Next year I'll be more reasonable.  Wink
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #179 - 12/05/12 at 02:35:57
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TonyRo wrote on 12/03/12 at 18:37:39:
I have no comments on the analysis, but I did get a great chuckle at the notion of "correspondence level" being 15 min/move.


How does that work then? 
Surely that requires a couple of weeks without sleep.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #178 - 12/04/12 at 22:25:22
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Well, 60 games are too much...even for me.  Roll Eyes Currently, I play no less than 42.. Not that I'm too happy about it.
But, 15 min per move is almost an OTB game.  Wink
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #177 - 12/04/12 at 13:14:55
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Vass wrote on 12/03/12 at 19:07:03:
TonyRo wrote on 12/03/12 at 18:37:39:
I have no comments on the analysis, but I did get a great chuckle at the notion of "correspondence level" being 15 min/move.


Grin

Lips Sealed


When I had 60 games going simultaneously 15 minutes/move was a luxury. Obviously in you are only playing 4-6 games, you can devote hours/move.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #176 - 12/03/12 at 19:07:03
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TonyRo wrote on 12/03/12 at 18:37:39:
I have no comments on the analysis, but I did get a great chuckle at the notion of "correspondence level" being 15 min/move.


Grin

Lips Sealed
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #175 - 12/03/12 at 18:37:39
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I have no comments on the analysis, but I did get a great chuckle at the notion of "correspondence level" being 15 min/move.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #174 - 12/02/12 at 16:27:10
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It looks like 10.h3 is forced. Houdini cooked 10.Nc3; I played this game against Houdini at about correspondence level e.g. 15 minutes/move:

10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Ngxe4 Re8 14.f3 Nd5! 15.Qf2 f5 16.fxg4 fxe4 17.Nxe4 Nf6 18.Qe2 Qe7 19.Nxf6ch Qxf6 20.Be4 Rb4 21.d3 Qh4ch =/+
[/quote]

It doesn't look good for the home team; here are two more cooks of 9.Bd3

10.h3 h6 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 O-O 13.g4  (Nc3 f5 14.Bxc6 Nxc6 15.Qxc6 Bb7 16.Qc4ch Kh7 & Black has excellent compensation) Nb7! 14.Bxc6 Nc5 15.d3 Rb6 16.Bd5 Ne6 17.c3 Be7 18.O-O h5! =/+

10.O-O Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe4 Re8 15.h3 f5! 16.hxg4 Rxe4 17.Qd3 Rxg4 18.Qxf5 Rg6 19.d4 Qh4 20.f4 Rb5 21.Qe4 Rh5 22.Nd2 Rhh6 23.Re1 Qh2ch 24.Kf1 Rh4 -+ [/quote]

As is usual in these situations, Black is getting "too" much advantage which means that I was missing a White resource. Here a simple change in move order underscores the difficulties for both sides:

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6! 10.Ne4! Nxe4 11.Bxe4 O-O 12.Nc3 f5 (There are other choices) 13.Bxc6 Nxc6 14.Qxc6 & White may be a little better than in the line where White plays 9.Bxc6ch. After 14...Bb7 15.Qc4ch Kh8 16.Rg1 is complicated with chances for both sides, but I'd rather play Black. White has to try to castle Queenside and push his Queenside pawns.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #173 - 12/01/12 at 19:15:01
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sloughter wrote on 12/01/12 at 16:52:04:
Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


It looks like 10.h3 is forced. Houdini cooked 10.Nc3; I played this game against Houdini at about correspondence level e.g. 15 minutes/move:

10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Ngxe4 Re8 14.f3 Nd5! 15.Qf2 f5 16.fxg4 fxe4 17.Nxe4 Nf6 18.Qe2 Qe7 19.Nxf6ch Qxf6 20.Be4 Rb4 21.d3 Qh4ch =/+


It doesn't look good for the home team; here are two more cooks of 9.Bd3

10.h3 h6 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 O-O 13.g4  (Nc3 f5 14.Bxc6 Nxc6 15.Qxc6 Bb7 16.Qc4ch Kh7 & Black has excellent compensation) Nb7! 14.Bxc6 Nc5 15.d3 Rb6 16.Bd5 Ne6 17.c3 Be7 18.O-O h5! =/+

10.O-O Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe4 Re8 15.h3 f5! 16.hxg4 Rxe4 17.Qd3 Rxg4 18.Qxf5 Rg6 19.d4 Qh4 20.f4 Rb5 21.Qe4 Rh5 22.Nd2 Rhh6 23.Re1 Qh2ch 24.Kf1 Rh4 -+
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #172 - 12/01/12 at 16:52:04
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Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


It looks like 10.h3 is forced. Houdini cooked 10.Nc3; I played this game against Houdini at about correspondence level e.g. 15 minutes/move:

10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Ngxe4 Re8 14.f3 Nd5! 15.Qf2 f5 16.fxg4 fxe4 17.Nxe4 Nf6 18.Qe2 Qe7 19.Nxf6ch Qxf6 20.Be4 Rb4 21.d3 Qh4ch =/+
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #171 - 11/29/12 at 15:19:27
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sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 20:06:37:
Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


Whenever I see a move like 9...Bd6 I'd look at every developing move before I would consider 10.h3. Here is a sharp attempt by Black to attack:

10.O-O! Bg4 11.Qg3! e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Re8 14.Qg5! Nxe4 15.Qxg4 Rb4 16.Bxe4 R4xe4 17.Qf3 Re1 18.g3! Qd7 19.Qg2 +/=?


It turns out that 10.h3!? May be the best move. Consider the following game:


Black played the best move order in Oleksien-Leniart, Lvov, 2008. What makes this move order interesting is that Black avoids an obvious move for one that is more subtle and stronger.

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6?! 10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qg3 Nd5! 12.Nxd5 (There is nothing better) cxd5 13.Qxa7 Qxg5?! (Be7! =/+) 14…Qxg5 15.Qxa5 White’s passed pawns on the Queenside proved decisive +/= 1-0:50

  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #170 - 11/27/12 at 04:55:53
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Vass wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:58:11:
sloughter wrote on 10/26/12 at 15:25:36:
Vass wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:50:34:
@TN
Still it's a progress..
Could have been worse, you know..  Wink


While the main lines after 8...Rb8 seem pretty good for Black, some of the alternatives favor White. Here Black can regain the pawn but it favors White:

8...Rb8 9.Bd3 Rb4?! 10.Nc3 Rg4 (Rf4 11.Qe2 +/=) 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 (cxb5 13.Bb5ch) 13.Ng3 Qxf3 14.gxf3 Rf4 15.b3 & It doesn't matter whether or not Black regains the pawn, both Fritz 12 and Houdini 2 rate this as +/= to +/-.


Imho 8....Be7 is better than 8...Rb8. Nevertheless, after 8...Rb8 9.Bd3 I think black can try 9...Bd6!? Look at this correspondence game:



13.b3 is not a good move obviously, but I think black is doing fine even after the better 13.g4 move.  Cool


A key test of this idea occurred in Egglesto-Ledger, London, 2010: 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Bd3 Bd6 10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qg3 e4 12.Qe3 O-O 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Nxe4 Re8 15.f3 Bc8 16.g4 f5 17.gxf5 Bxf5 18.Kd1 c5 19.Be2 Qc7 20.Qd3 Rbd8 21.Nf6ch gxf6 22.Qxf5 Be5 23.f4 Bxf4 24.Rg1ch Bg5 25.Qxf6 h6 26.Qxh6 1:0
  
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