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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 21172 times)
barnaby
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #94 - 08/03/12 at 02:17:28
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Ignorance is bliss.

  
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Markovich
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #93 - 08/03/12 at 02:08:32
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Sloughter's persistent misevaluations arise from a lack of understanding. Few of us here are able to claim really deep understanding of chess, but the general level of chess knowledge here far exceeds poor sloughter's.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone's being at any particular level in this game, so I'm not about to denegrate sloughter for his 1700 rating or whatever it is. What is wrong, though, is to keep coming back here with poorly reasoned analysis and to insist tiresomely on its correctness. It's a waste of time at best. This is not a site devoted to delivering free chess instruction, but sloughter doesn't listen when good instruction is nevertheless given.

Sloughter will never be a strong player so long as he persists in his evident view that chess is an easy game. The path to improvement lies through playing
many games; but sloughter seems to want to demonstrate what he imagines to be his innate genius. Instead he repeatedly demonstrates his ignorance. It's sad, really.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #92 - 08/02/12 at 16:31:52
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My frustration is two-fold. Sloughter claims the prerogatives of science, but acts as a partisan. If someone's analysis holds up he, as a scientist, should accept it and say where he went wrong. Instead, he ignores it and starts another thread.

My second source of frustration is that declarations are made and only then is the truth sought. Starting with an hypothesis is fine. But to jump to conclusions and defend them to the death before any serious analysis is done runs counter to a healthy discourse.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #91 - 08/02/12 at 16:04:23
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sloughter wrote on 07/11/12 at 22:44:30:


When I'm wrong analysis is provided in great detail. When I'm right there is no analysis. 

sloughter wrote on 07/31/12 at 16:27:12:

Science connects the known to the known. Yasser Seirawan Editor of Inside Chess called Karpov the most "confounding" player he had ever seen. "His pieces are only on the first and second rank but White is better!"

Steinitz and Karpov understand universal positions. My theories are fully consistent with those of Steinitz. 

Here is a quote from Steinitz published by Estrin, appearing in Correspondence World Champion Estrin’s book, The Two Knights’ Defense page 117, 1983 Edition, “Take a look at the board now, after my awkward retreat 13.Ng1. I have six pawns on their original squares, which, according to my theory…is a great advantage." I recommend post members consider this quote of Steinitz when looking at the positions I recommend.

When we are wrong you provide us with analysis in great detail. When we are right there is no analysis.

Don't forget that in your quote Steinitz was commenting on the variation he played as White against Chigorin in their correspondence match, and that Chigorin quickly proved him wrong, winning in brutal and spectacular fashion. But if historical figures speak to you more deeply, consider these words by Chigorin, made in the context of the same match. I don't have the original source so I'll make do by quoting from Kasparov's My Great Predecessors I, p. 81:

"The geniuses Morphy and Anderssen did not require any abstract understandings. [I] was not guided by abstract theoretical understandings about the comparative strength of the pieces etc., but solely by those facts which seem correct... after a detailed and if possible accurate analysis. Each move of mine is a feasible continuation from a number of variations, in the analysis of which theoretical 'principles of play' may have only a limited significance."
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #90 - 08/02/12 at 09:20:48
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/12 at 08:26:02:
Smiley I have read about the Popcorn Opening and the Influenza Gambit, but this one is new for me.


This variation was mentioned by Roger Williamson in one of the longest threads on this site in which a certain individual 'destroyed reality itself' according to some Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #89 - 08/02/12 at 08:26:02
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Smiley I have read about the Popcorn Opening and the Influenza Gambit, but this one is new for me.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #88 - 08/02/12 at 07:28:11
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sloughter wrote on 07/31/12 at 16:27:12:
kylemeister wrote on 07/16/12 at 19:47:45:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/16/12 at 19:28:35:
10...h6 is probably enough for equality too.


I notice that 10...h6 11. Ne4 Nd5 appears to compare favorably (for Black) to a position considered += by Victor Mikhalevski -- in that case White was castled and Black was not, rather than the reverse.


Science connects the known to the known. Yasser Seirawan Editor of Inside Chess called Karpov the most "confounding" player he had ever seen. "His pieces are only on the first and second rank but White is better!"

Steinitz and Karpov understand universal positions. My theories are fully consistent with those of Steinitz. 

Here is a quote from Steinitz published by Estrin, appearing in Correspondence World Champion Estrin’s book, The Two Knights’ Defense page 117, 1983 Edition, “Take a look at the board now, after my awkward retreat 13.Ng1. I have six pawns on their original squares, which, according to my theory…is a great advantage." I recommend post members consider this quote of Steinitz when looking at the positions I recommend.


Sorry  sloughter but defending positions with vague statements and quotes just doesn't work. If you want to prove an advantage stick to analysis, preferably together with a decent computer to check your lines. Your post could as well be used to defend the Cuban missile crisis variation.
  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #87 - 07/31/12 at 16:27:12
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kylemeister wrote on 07/16/12 at 19:47:45:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/16/12 at 19:28:35:
10...h6 is probably enough for equality too.


I notice that 10...h6 11. Ne4 Nd5 appears to compare favorably (for Black) to a position considered += by Victor Mikhalevski -- in that case White was castled and Black was not, rather than the reverse.


Science connects the known to the known. Yasser Seirawan Editor of Inside Chess called Karpov the most "confounding" player he had ever seen. "His pieces are only on the first and second rank but White is better!"

Steinitz and Karpov understand universal positions. My theories are fully consistent with those of Steinitz. 

Here is a quote from Steinitz published by Estrin, appearing in Correspondence World Champion Estrin’s book, The Two Knights’ Defense page 117, 1983 Edition, “Take a look at the board now, after my awkward retreat 13.Ng1. I have six pawns on their original squares, which, according to my theory…is a great advantage." I recommend post members consider this quote of Steinitz when looking at the positions I recommend.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #86 - 07/16/12 at 19:47:45
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/16/12 at 19:28:35:
10...h6 is probably enough for equality too.


I notice that 10...h6 11. Ne4 Nd5 appears to compare favorably (for Black) to a position considered += by Victor Mikhalevski -- in that case White was castled and Black was not, rather than the reverse.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #85 - 07/16/12 at 19:30:55
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I'm guessing that sloughter's suggestion for an improvement on move 10 means that he agrees with my analysis posted on July 12.

  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #84 - 07/16/12 at 19:28:35
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10...h6 is probably enough for equality too.

It's a shame that the following line probably doesn't work, it's pretty cool. White has had his fun, and it will soon be Black's turn. 

In a tournament setting, I would describe the line as unclear. But in a tournament setting, I would bale out with h6 after Qxf3, with an equal game. 

Perhaps Stefan or Markovich can come up with a way to save White's attack.


  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #83 - 07/16/12 at 16:57:41
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Sloughter, please, get yourself a modern computer and check your ideas.

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Qd1? Qd5 at least =/+
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #82 - 07/16/12 at 16:41:46
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sloughter wrote on 07/12/12 at 15:53:53:
Vass wrote on 07/12/12 at 07:49:49:
sloughter wrote on 07/12/12 at 04:14:40:
All valid points---White has to improve:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 (It is rare that White can play this in this variation illustrating a key improvement for White) Nf4 13.Qxe5 Bd6 14.Qg5 Qxg5 15.Nxg5 Nxd3 16.cxd3 Ba6 17.Nf3 Bxd3 18.Re1 Rfe8 19.Nc3 Rxe1ch 20.Nxe1 Bf5 21.Nd1 Nc4 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.fxe3 & White has the extra pawn. 

Something more valuable, at last..
There we go.. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 f6!  Wink


When a piece can occupy a square that it cannot access in less than in a minimum number of moves, then it is a developing move i.e. when White played Ne1, that is a developing move. When White played Nf3/Ng5/Ne4 each Knight move was a developing move but in the main line Ng3 loses two tempos (The way I define development because White can reach g3 in two tempos i.e. Ne2/Ng3 so he took four tempos to reach a square he could reach in two tempos

f6 is not a developing move and loses a tempo in a sharp position. I instantly saw Ne1 to retreat to a universal position and defend the Bishop on d3.


8.Qf3 Be7 (The Bishop is too passive here) 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Qd1!! g6 11.O-O Nd5 12.Nf3 Nb4 13.Be2 e4 14.Ne1! +/-
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #81 - 07/12/12 at 16:40:56
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sloughter wrote on 07/12/12 at 15:53:53:
Vass wrote on 07/12/12 at 07:49:49:
sloughter wrote on 07/12/12 at 04:14:40:
All valid points---White has to improve:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 (It is rare that White can play this in this variation illustrating a key improvement for White) Nf4 13.Qxe5 Bd6 14.Qg5 Qxg5 15.Nxg5 Nxd3 16.cxd3 Ba6 17.Nf3 Bxd3 18.Re1 Rfe8 19.Nc3 Rxe1ch 20.Nxe1 Bf5 21.Nd1 Nc4 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.fxe3 & White has the extra pawn. 

Something more valuable, at last..
There we go.. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 f6!  Wink


When a piece can occupy a square that it cannot access in less than in a minimum number of moves, then it is a developing move i.e. when White played Ne1, that is a developing move. When White played Nf3/Ng5/Ne4 each Knight move was a developing move but in the main line Ng3 loses two tempos (The way I define development because White can reach g3 in two tempos i.e. Ne2/Ng3 so he took four tempos to reach a square he could reach in two tempos

f6 is not a developing move and loses a tempo in a sharp position. I instantly saw Ne1 to retreat to a universal position and defend the Bishop on d3.


I disagree with your definition of "development". And now I think I understand what you mean by a "universal position". You really mean that a piece will often go to the same square in different variations. The common term for that is a "key square" or a "thematic move". An outpost is a key square, not a "universal position". A position refers to the position of all the pieces!


I agree that f6 isn't a developing move. It does shore up an important central pawn tho. I disagree completely that this is a "sharp position". White is threatening almost nothing at all. Black's advantage is long-term, despite the material investment. It's in large part because the position isn't rife with tactics that the computer evaluation is so untrustworthy. 

Here's a sample line that I worked out with the aid of Fritz (mostly to guess what moves you will look at) and Houdini:



Edited:
Edited to fix a problem with apostrophes in the annotated game. ~SF July 12, 2012
« Last Edit: 07/13/12 at 02:38:53 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #80 - 07/12/12 at 15:53:53
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Vass wrote on 07/12/12 at 07:49:49:
sloughter wrote on 07/12/12 at 04:14:40:
All valid points---White has to improve:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 (It is rare that White can play this in this variation illustrating a key improvement for White) Nf4 13.Qxe5 Bd6 14.Qg5 Qxg5 15.Nxg5 Nxd3 16.cxd3 Ba6 17.Nf3 Bxd3 18.Re1 Rfe8 19.Nc3 Rxe1ch 20.Nxe1 Bf5 21.Nd1 Nc4 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.fxe3 & White has the extra pawn. 

Something more valuable, at last..
There we go.. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O g6 11.Qe2! Nd5 12.Nf3 f6!  Wink


When a piece can occupy a square that it cannot access in less than in a minimum number of moves, then it is a developing move i.e. when White played Ne1, that is a developing move. When White played Nf3/Ng5/Ne4 each Knight move was a developing move but in the main line Ng3 loses two tempos (The way I define development because White can reach g3 in two tempos i.e. Ne2/Ng3 so he took four tempos to reach a square he could reach in two tempos

f6 is not a developing move and loses a tempo in a sharp position. I instantly saw Ne1 to retreat to a universal position and defend the Bishop on d3.
  
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