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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra" (Read 199801 times)
MNb
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #23 - 06/29/12 at 12:01:30
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Dragonslayer wrote on 06/28/12 at 14:03:04:
So the open Sicilian is better than the morra because White can choose g3 lines???

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that it's less work. Strawman. My, do I get tired of this. I quit. If anybody wants to replace me as the moderator of the Dragon section, you're welcome. This forum doesn't need me anymore.
All the regulars (including Dragonslayer and Ghenghis Clown; coolest nick ever) thanks for all the good times.
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #22 - 06/29/12 at 07:03:02
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In my humble patzer opinion, I think that white has the slightly better chanses in Alapin with Nf6 compared to Alapin via Morra move order. 

About Morra aceepted, I think whites has very good practical chanses even in lines white has played moves that are suboptimal. 

If 2 Nf3 followed by d4 is a mistake against most options since black gets a more pawns in the centre I would say that by the same logic Morra most be even more of a mistake since whites has no longer more pawns at queenside.

If everyone declined Morra with d3 I would play Morra and not Open sicilian since I rather play white in the Bind. About accelerated Dragon, white or is is not forced to play either the Bind or play Bc4 yugoslav attack. If white plays g3 systems vs Dragon it is possible to retreat the Knight to e2 and transpose to a Dragon mainline. Be2 based Slay the siciliian also recommened the same line vs Dragon and accelereted Dragon by transposing by moveing the Knight.

« Last Edit: 06/29/12 at 09:16:27 by bragesjo »  
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MartinC
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #21 - 06/28/12 at 18:12:12
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No, the debate was which one was easier to play Smiley The easiest, aggressive option is almost certainly sundry open Sicillian side lines.
  
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #20 - 06/28/12 at 14:25:38
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Regarding the first point, White's delaying d4 is a more common and significant possibility than Black's delaying ...cd.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #19 - 06/28/12 at 14:03:04
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PANFR wrote on 06/27/12 at 16:10:32:
Actually from the Morra move order White has less options than the Alapin, as he can't delay d2-d4 for a while.

And Black cannot delay ...cxd4, so...?
It's been a while since I've heard so many unfounded claims.
So the open Sicilian is better than the morra because White can choose g3 lines??? Really...
I agree that two setups to chose from is better than one but that was not the debate.
the Ruy Lopez gives not better, rather more chances for an interesting game than the KG and likewise with the open sicilian vs the Morra.
Yes I believe the Morra and KG are playable. You guys claim they are refuted, or dubious because of the prolifity of such claims, which makes even less sense.
Btw some people think 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 against the Sicilian is a mistake.
3...d3 dull, maybe so. What do you play against the acc. Dragon?
  
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PANFR
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #18 - 06/27/12 at 16:10:32
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Actually from the Morra move order White has less options than the Alapin, as he can't delay d2-d4 for a while.
  
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MNb
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #17 - 06/27/12 at 13:52:15
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Dragonslayer wrote on 06/27/12 at 08:00:11:
The open Sicilian less work? I guess that's why Anand switched to Bb5 after getting nothing against the Sveshnikov vs Gelfand.

Exactly - not because of the amount of work, but because of getting nothing. You don't think White gets something with the Morra, do you? And last time I checked the FIDE-rules White was not obliged to play mainstream Open Siclians like the English Attack and the Richter-Rauser.
A repertoire a la Davies based on 6.g3 is less work than the Morra Gambit, yes. It might surprise you, but 9.g4 in the Yugoslav Attack doesn't have that much theory either. Such options require less work than 2.d4 and 3.c3.
Not too mention that 3...d3 is dull.
  

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TN
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #16 - 06/27/12 at 13:46:03
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I played 3...d3 and 3...dc3 followed by e6, a6 and b5 ages ago, but nowadays always play 3...Nf6. So far none of my opponents in the position after 3...Nf6 have managed to play sensible theory past move nine. 

I've purchased Langrock's Morra book so I might buy this one too, especially since I have the Alapin in my White repertoire already. But I'll wait for some reviews first.
  

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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #15 - 06/27/12 at 13:43:55
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3. ... Nf6 and all Morrafans have to play a calm line, instead of an attacking line - the opposite what they wanted and the feeling of wasted time, what else can you expect from a single move?
  

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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #14 - 06/27/12 at 08:39:20
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Yes there are, but the problem with needing extra work is principally down to the extra degree of soundness that both 2 Nf3 and the open sicillian have over the KG/Morra.

With the KG and Morra there's enough worry about their soundness for people to plausibly try and refute them. Obviously white very likely has enough scope to survive these attempts but their existence does show that white has to be pretty accurate early on to even survive.

On the other hand It'd be totally absurd for someone to try and refute 2 Nf3 or the open Sicillian Smiley Getting a workable advantage takes a whole lot of work of course. 

But what you do get offered is the chance to deviate a bit fairly early on and retain a prefectly acceptable, interesting position.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #13 - 06/27/12 at 08:00:11
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Seeley wrote on 06/26/12 at 20:57:25:
MNb wrote on 06/26/12 at 20:26:49:
I call the Morra Gambit highly theoretical - the Open Sicilian is less work.

You're right that the Morra is no easy option for White: Black has a whole host of playable options available and White would be well-advised to be prepared for them.

What I think is important, though, is that Morra theory is considerably less crystallised than Open Sicilian theory, which means that any independent work a Morra player does will have a greater chance of reaping dividends. Many Open Sicilian lines have been tested thoroughly at a high level, but the Morra hasn't. So there are likely to be many more strong and undiscovered novelties lurking in the Morra undergrowth than in the Open Siclian plains. Esserman's crushing defeat of Van Wely in 2011 is an apt example of a winning idea discovered in a known Morra position.

So you're right, White has a lot of work to do if he intends to play the Morra. My contention is that this work is potentially more productive than the work he'd have to put into learning Open Sicilians.

Actually the Esserman-van Wely game is a drawing line. Check Langrock's book for details. Or maybe Mayhem in the Morra will improve?
The open Sicilian less work? I guess that's why Anand switched to Bb5 after getting nothing against the Sveshnikov vs Gelfand. It seems the Najdorf and Dragon are also playable at top level and then there are 15 other lines that schmucks like us can play.
I fail to see the difference from this and the Morra.
In fact one often hears the same argument against the King's gambit - lots of possible defences and all of them sound. But if you play 2.Nf3 are there less good possibilities for black than after 2.f4.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #12 - 06/26/12 at 20:57:25
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MNb wrote on 06/26/12 at 20:26:49:
I call the Morra Gambit highly theoretical - the Open Sicilian is less work.

You're right that the Morra is no easy option for White: Black has a whole host of playable options available and White would be well-advised to be prepared for them.

What I think is important, though, is that Morra theory is considerably less crystallised than Open Sicilian theory, which means that any independent work a Morra player does will have a greater chance of reaping dividends. Many Open Sicilian lines have been tested thoroughly at a high level, but the Morra hasn't. So there are likely to be many more strong and undiscovered novelties lurking in the Morra undergrowth than in the Open Siclian plains. Esserman's crushing defeat of Van Wely in 2011 is an apt example of a winning idea discovered in a known Morra position.

So you're right, White has a lot of work to do if he intends to play the Morra. My contention is that this work is potentially more productive than the work he'd have to put into learning Open Sicilians.
  
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Seeley
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #11 - 06/26/12 at 20:36:02
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Michael Ayton wrote on 06/26/12 at 09:11:49:
Ah yes, thanks -- I forgot about that! Embarrassed Mind you, 3 ...d5 seems to have been played by some strong players, and to score reasonably.

Hello Michael,
You're quite right, it does, but I wonder if the statistics might be a bit misleading here. I haven't carried out anything remotely resembling a rigorous analysis of the figures, but the games in my Mega Database that reach this position often seem to be between opponents where Black is very much the stronger player. I can certainly see how a higher-rated Black would rather not risk any accidents fishing in the murky waters of the Morra, but instead would prefer to reach a relatively quiet position with an imbalance (an IQP) that he can use to play for a win. Having to play a suboptimal opening sequence to reach such a position in these circumstances can perhaps be considered relatively unimportant.
  
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MNb
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #10 - 06/26/12 at 20:26:49
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Volcanor wrote on 06/26/12 at 07:58:44:
I always wondered what to play after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 Nf6. If play continues 4.e5

This is the only serious option.

Seeley wrote on 06/26/12 at 12:10:51:
Given that the ...Nf6 is in many Sicilian players' repertoires anyway,

It's safe to assume that you'll meet 3...Nf6 in 15-25% of your games.

Seeley wrote on 06/26/12 at 08:27:11:
Normally in the 2.c3 d5 lines Black will delay capturing on d4 until this is forced because, once the exchange has occurred, White has c3 available for his Knight.

This is correct of course, but it isn't much of a shortcut. 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.d4 Nc6 5.Nf3 cxd4 6.cxd4 e5 and 5...e6 with a later ...cxd4 are also important lines. The transposition is 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Nf3 e5 and 6...e6. In the latter case White sometimes has the extra option of Bc4, which transposes to the Steinitz Variation of the QGA.

Anther possible transposition is 3...g6 4.cxd4 d5 and White has the choice between 4.e5 (a kind of Gurgenidze System) and 4.exd5  (Panov Variation of the Caro-Kann and/or the Hyper Accelerated Dragon 2.Nf3).
There is also 3...e6 4.cxd4 d5 when 5.e5, a sideline of the French Exchange is best.
Finally there is 2...d6 3.cxd4 Nf6 4.Nc3 which is a good version of 2.c3 d6.
This is nothing to put White off, but it is an important reason why I call the Morra Gambit highly theoretical - the Open Sicilian is less work.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Esserman "Mayhem in the Morra"
Reply #9 - 06/26/12 at 14:46:02
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It could be added that not only does 3...Nf6 force transposition to a 2...Nf6 Alapin, it also rules out some of White's possibilities there, such as 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 (perhaps the main line of recent years).
  
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