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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The ultimate draw rule (Read 20163 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #16 - 08/07/12 at 17:59:41
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I agree it would end "early" draw offers, and almost all other draw offers too. But I don't see draw offers as a problem that needs to be fixed.

The solution is far worse than any perceived problem it claims to address.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #15 - 08/07/12 at 17:50:48
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/07/12 at 17:26:12:
I like this idea. It would make draw offers double-edged to the point they require considerably more thought than they currently do. It would actually turn the offer into a disadvantage, meaning it would only hold merit in positions where agreeing to a draw is fruitful.

I bet you nobody would offer Carlsen a draw anymore unless it was a theoretical one they knew how to hold. Grin


The thing is, this change would basically be the equivalent of eliminating draws.  You would essentially just be "claiming" a draw in theoretically drawn positions, as offering a draw with any sort of complications on the board would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

Also, this doesn't change the fact that players can draw on the board if they want to, i.e. play into drawing lines from the opening or just repeat moves in more simplified positions without explicitly offering a draw.  I would actually envision that since offering a draw is so disadvantageous, many players will just sort of make some eye contact, wink, or a hand gesture and repeat moves agreeably, thereby claiming a draw without having to make the extremely disadvantageous offer.   

It all just seems silly to me.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #14 - 08/07/12 at 17:29:30
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I suggest a slight change in the (interesting) permanent draw offer idea: When such a permanent offer is declined, the delayed acceptance shrinks in value by 1/100 point with every move. So if White offers a draw in move 30, and Black accepts only 10 moves later, the point will be split 0.6 for White and only 0.4 for Black. 

Edit: This would bring an element of tension. If Black declines, time is running against him.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #13 - 08/07/12 at 17:26:12
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I like this idea. It would make draw offers double-edged to the point they require considerably more thought than they currently do. It would actually turn the offer into a disadvantage, meaning it would only hold merit in positions where agreeing to a draw is fruitful.

I bet you nobody would offer Carlsen a draw anymore unless it was a theoretical one they knew how to hold. Grin
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #12 - 08/07/12 at 16:46:28
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TN wrote on 08/07/12 at 16:25:33:
An interesting idea, but I don't see how making draw offers permanent would differ from banning all draw offers in practice. Under the proposed rule it would be irrational to offer a draw in any position as it would remove the chance of winning the game in the event of the opponent blundering. Also, in the event of a permanent draw offer being made, does the person who offered the draw win if the opponent loses on time, is checkmated, or their phone rings (with the offerer having mating material)?


Well, it seems to me like a better idea than the celebrated Sofia rules, as then the players must ask permission to offer or accept a draw. 

With permanent draw offers players would only offer draws in positions where they are practically certain that it will be accepted - or if the opponent is a spouse or very close friend.

If you allow yourself to be checkmated then I'd imagine that it's too late to accept the draw and I guess that should go for the other scenarios as well (though the official rules might say differently?) , though I really don't think anyone should win because the opponent's phone rings - even if it is a rule nowadays...

Unlike SmyslovFan, I'm fairly certain that it would lead to more games being played out until a logical conclusion.

Quote:
We have seen numerous games where Player A offers a draw, Player B refuses, overpresses and loses. In your scenario, that will no longer be a possible outcome. Therefore the number of draws will go up.


But we still have the scenario of neither player offering a draw and still one of them overpresses and loses. While fewer games are agreed drawn on the way...
  
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TN
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #11 - 08/07/12 at 16:25:33
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An interesting idea, but I don't see how making draw offers permanent would differ from banning all draw offers in practice. Under the proposed rule it would be irrational to offer a draw in any position as it would remove the chance of winning the game in the event of the opponent blundering. Also, in the event of a permanent draw offer being made, does the person who offered the draw win if the opponent loses on time, is checkmated, or their phone rings (with the offerer having mating material)?

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #10 - 08/07/12 at 16:15:52
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Chess is all about subterfuge. Offering a strategic draw is not "dishonest" in that all the information needed to make an informed choice is available to both players.  

To make your claim, that there are too many early draws, legitimate there would have to be a large number of "early" draws. I just don't see it, especially in the +2700 games I watch. Why do you think a new rule is necessary in today's climate of no draw offers before move 30 or 40 in most tournaments?

We have seen numerous games where Player A offers a draw, Player B refuses, overpresses and loses. In your scenario, that will no longer be a possible outcome. Therefore the number of draws will go up.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #9 - 08/07/12 at 15:27:35
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/07/12 at 15:13:10:
The idea is interesting, but not appealing to me.

I've always enjoyed the concept of a strategic draw offer, and this obviates one of the nice subtleties of chess. 

If the opponent refuses the draw then overreaches, he should be punished with a loss, not a draw. I thought one of the perceived problems of modern chess was that there were too many draws, not too many draw offers. This would only increase the number of draws.


The problem as I see it and what this rule is aimed at, is not that there are "too many draws" but that there are too many early draws, without even a hint of fight. 

Please explain how the Euwe Rule would increase the number of draws as I don't understand your reasoning to reach that conclusion. 

And punishing draw offers only made to psyche the opponent is another good thing with making draw offers permanent. If you can't play honestly to win, why should you be allowed to benefit from disturbing/provoking your opponent?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #8 - 08/07/12 at 15:17:24
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Call me crazy, but I like chess the way it is.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #7 - 08/07/12 at 15:13:10
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The idea is interesting, but not appealing to me.

I've always enjoyed the concept of a strategic draw offer, and this obviates one of the nice subtleties of chess. 

If the opponent refuses the draw then overreaches, he should be punished with a loss, not a draw. I thought one of the perceived problems of modern chess was that there were too many draws, not too many draw offers. This would only increase the number of draws.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #6 - 08/07/12 at 14:39:44
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Well, if the notation of draw offers become important then the rules will probably get sharper for those who ignore it.

Sure, some will try to deny it - but this is no different than denying your cell-phone rang or that there never was any intention in moving the piece when touching it, etc etc - so I agree with you that it shouldn't be an issue.
  
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Antillian
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #5 - 08/07/12 at 14:10:39
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@ TalJechin

Yes, the rules may be clear. But there is no way of enforcing this rule in the absence of a witness. This is probably not a major issue. But people do tend to be less honest when the stakes become greater.
  
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #4 - 08/07/12 at 13:47:10
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Antillian wrote on 08/07/12 at 13:07:51:
Interesting idea. It certainly raises the stakes of a draw offer significantly. As a result, it becomes less likely that one can rely on a players's honour since it  is likely  that many players will deny having made an offer in the first place. So I imagine if Player A offers a draw to player B, Player B would have to call the arbiter and insist that the first player repeat the offer in the presence of the arbiter before replying.


The rules are already quite clear about this:

Quote:
Article 9: The drawn game

9.1

a.

The rules of a competition may specify that players cannot agree to a draw, whether in less than a specified number of moves or at all, without the consent of the arbiter.

     
b.

If the rules of a competition allow a draw agreement the following apply:
A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent’s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.
The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with a symbol. (See Appendix C.13)

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

@gwnn
Nice that I'm not the first to think in these directions, but reducing it to a five move validity sounds pointless imo.

@Vass
Yes, it will make it slightly more difficult for statistics and chess journalists, as the final position may not be a draw at all...

Btw, maybe we could name the idea The Euwe Rule - as in the last game of his first match with Alekhine, he offered a permanent draw publicly before the game. And iirc Alekhine finally accepted when he was two pawns down.
  
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Antillian
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #3 - 08/07/12 at 13:07:51
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Interesting idea. It certainly raises the stakes of a draw offer significantly. As a result, it becomes less likely that one can rely on a players's honour since it  is likely  that many players will deny having made an offer in the first place. So I imagine if Player A offers a draw to player B, Player B would have to call the arbiter and insist that the first player repeat the offer in the presence of the arbiter before replying.
  
"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Vass
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Re: The ultimate draw rule
Reply #2 - 08/07/12 at 12:00:21
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Very interesting idea! ...And I like it...at the first sight!
And still I wonder what if..
What about a situation like - player A offers a draw to player B in a complicated but about equal position. They both add (=) after the move in the score sheet where the offer was made. Then player B decides to play for a win (with the draw in his pocket) and is starting to make a 'sac' after 'sac' - pawns, pieces, even his queen.. And when the fog clears...and no win available, they both sign below the (1/2) mark..
And then we take this one from a certain database and play through it.. And what do we see? A crazy game.. Cheesy
..and a draw!  Shocked
Amusing!  Grin But where are the chess standarts here?  Roll Eyes
  
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