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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) quick rules question (Read 13710 times)
Girkassa
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #21 - 08/19/12 at 10:22:19
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I understand what you are saying. However, I still disagree. How does writing down your candidate move give you an unnatural advantage??


(The paragraph above is part of a post from ghenghisclown which was moved to the other thread since the rest of the post was more about doping in sports. However, it seems more appropriate to post this reply in this thread.)

In reply #7 I described how writing down candidate moves can help your thinking. I can think of several examples from my own games where I would have written down candidate moves if I was allowed to, and that might have led me to find a better move, or to spend less time finding the best move. Maybe that difference would have been enough to affect the final result in a few games; I'll never know for sure.

Perhaps a comparable situation would be that one player always starts the game with, say, 10 minutes more on the clock than the opponent. Usually it won't make any serious difference, and you still have to win the game without any external help, but between equal opponents, it could still make the decisive difference on a few occasions.

I'm not saying it's obvious that writing down moves in advance should not be allowed. It's not even obvious that writing full lines should not be allowed. In fact, it could be interesting to try "chess with unlimited allowance to write notes" and see if some players would be significantly better than others at exploiting the new possibilities. What is obvious to me, however, is that the rules should be the same for everyone. And if player A writes down candidate moves, while player B does not (because it's not allowed), then IMO player A gains a very small, but still unfair, advantage over player B.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #20 - 08/19/12 at 05:40:42
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TalJechin
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #19 - 08/18/12 at 12:37:22
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TalJechin wrote on 08/17/12 at 07:21:22:


There could be other reasons involved in addition to a concern about cheating. 

For one thing, some poor guy is usually supposed to enter the games in a database to be provided on the web and to chessbase, twic etc. And it's not easy to do that even when there's no crossed out candidate moves on the score sheet...


Another reason could be that one side writes down the move beforehand to see the reaction of the opponent, as in that famous old Fischer-Tal encounter. And thus prewriting is seen as unsporting in that it can disturb the opponent.
  
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Girkassa
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #18 - 08/18/12 at 11:22:23
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ghenghisclown wrote on 08/18/12 at 09:57:46:
So far, I've learned that writing down a move before you make it is cheating, and say, altering your blood chemistry to increase your oxygen intake or taking human growth hormone is only cheating because the rules say so. 


Writing down a move before you make it is cheating if, and only if, the rules say so. Just like steroids. If the rules forbid it, then you get an advantage over other players by using it, and thus it's cheating. If the rules allow it, it's not cheating, as your competitors can't blame you for enhancing your performance as long as you stay within the rules.

ghenghisclown wrote on 08/18/12 at 09:57:46:

The edge that an athlete gets, like on the Tour de France, or a situation where you only need an extra "oomph" with everyone being pretty much on the same level, is external. It does not come from you. 


I realize it's not a perfect analogy, but: food is also external. You can't prevent people from using external sources altogether, you have to draw the line somewhere. And that's why we need rules to define what is allowed.

I imagine that if shoes weren't "invented" yet and the marathon runners were used to run barefeet, the first one to show up with shoes would be called a cheater for using "external sources."
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #17 - 08/17/12 at 21:08:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/17/12 at 15:43:08:

Whether you consider yourself a cheater for breaking rules says more about you than about any objective measure.


WHO is doing that? I don't consider writing down a move (or even 2) cheating for reasons described (and not addressed by you) but I certainly would never willingly go against the rules. I make my move and then right it down...OH DEAR. 
  

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zoo
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #16 - 08/17/12 at 15:52:38
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TalJechin wrote on 08/17/12 at 07:21:22:



There could be other reasons involved in addition to a concern about cheating. 

For one thing, some poor guy is usually supposed to enter the games in a database to be provided on the web and to chessbase, twic etc. And it's not easy to do that even when there's no crossed out candidate moves on the score sheet...


that illustrates a new kind of mini-job in the chess community : the private base gatherer.

Many guys who don't want their games chessbased write down unintelligible moves. The most meticulous split the scoresheet and the carbon, scribble on the scoresheet and write normally on the carbon, which they keep. At the end of the tournament, there are a few guys who keep hassling the scribblers for their "real" games, in order to populate private bases that can be reselled (somehow, it's more important to know what your neighbours play rather than Magnus Carlsen). As nothing comes for free, some scribblers sell their games to the gatherers, and curse their naive opponents who write their moves in cleartext.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #15 - 08/17/12 at 15:43:08
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I used to write down my move in advance, and follow Kotov's advice. I had a few scoresheets that were almost illegible because I would change my mind and write another candidate move. I liked the ability to write moves in advance, but I understand the motivation for changing the rule. 

For me, if something is clearly against the rules, it's cheating. Chess is a game, and what differentiates chess from other games is its set of rules. If you want different rules, encourage FIDE to change the rules. But if you don't follow the "Laws of Chess", as written and published, you are cheating. 

Whether you consider yourself a cheater for breaking rules says more about you than about any objective measure.
  
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Pantu
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #14 - 08/17/12 at 15:22:53
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Way back in the day (1920's? 1930's?) this advice was given and I've seen it trotted out countless times since:

    "It often happens that a player carries out a deep and complicated calculation, but fails to spot something elementary right at the first move. In order to avoid such gross blunders, the Soviet master B. Blumenfeld made this recommendation:-
    When you have finished your calculations, write down the move you have decided upon on the score sheet. Then examine the position for a short time 'through the eyes of a patzer'. Ask whether you have left a mate in one on, or left a piece or a pawn to be taken. Only when you have convinced yourself that there is no immediate catastrophe for you should you make the planned move."

-- KOTOV (in Play like a Grandmaster, I believe)

I think "Blumenfeld's Rule" was gospel for decades, which explains the widespread practice, but FIDE have disallowed it so it can't be used in any tournament that uses FIDE rules.

I remember being astonished on reading an article somewhere when Abby Marshall explained a poor performance in a scholastic tournament by the fact her mp3 player broke so she had to borrow someone else's to listen to during play, and didn't like the music so much  Shocked

It certainly seems to be allowed by the rules of those competitions (so not cheating) but I can't remember ever playing in one where it would be ok.  Then again, mp3 players weren't around when I was a junior...

The rule on "you must not distract your opponent" is one I'm more likely to want enforced.  I haven't yet encountered a player who likes to cough a lot during every game while their opponent is thinking, although I know of a few.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #13 - 08/17/12 at 15:09:30
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TimS wrote on 08/17/12 at 13:50:11:
There were also occasions - I was a 'victim' at least once - of people writing down a move and waiting for a stronger friend on an adjacent board to indicate his opinion


Excellent point, and I wasn't going to outright accuse my opponent of cheating, but his coach was always right there, watching his game.  If he wrote 3 candidate moves on his scoresheet, it would be extremely easy for his coach to give him a signal to play move 1, 2, or 3.  You know, scratch his nose for move 1, move over to look at the game to the right for move 2, etc.   

It's not like he wrote one move, thought about it, erased it and wrote another.  He'd write 2-3 moves on the scoresheet and then just circle the one he ended up playing, leaving the others there.  Strange.

Still, I'm an a-hole for being happy about winning an easy game  Roll Eyes.

Also, I'm 99% sure that the USCF has changed its rules to disallow writing the move before playing it.  At least, all the TDs in my area have announced that that is no longer permitted.
  
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TimS
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #12 - 08/17/12 at 13:50:11
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There were also occasions - I was a 'victim' at least once - of people writing down a move and waiting for a stronger friend on an adjacent board to indicate his opinion
  
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TalJechin
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #11 - 08/17/12 at 07:21:22
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ghenghisclown wrote on 08/16/12 at 17:20:02:
ErictheRed wrote on 08/16/12 at 15:53:02:
A promising young junior in California, rated around 1900, used to write down 2 or 3 moves on his scoresheet and then circle the one he ended up playing!  His coach had taught him to do this.  I complained to the TD but the TD told me that since I wasn't his opponent, nothing would be done.

A few rounds later I was paired against him and after a few moves I complained to the TD, who told him that he had to stop doing this.  He blundered a few moves later Smiley.

The only things allowed to go on your scoresheet, as far as I'm aware, are the actual moves played in the game, clock times, and draw offers.  That's it; anything else is considered note-taking.


Why is there a smiley face here? he blundered perhaps as a result of not being able to do this...and that's a good chess outcome??

It's not like he was generating lines...is this really  form of cheating?


There could be other reasons involved in addition to a concern about cheating. 

For one thing, some poor guy is usually supposed to enter the games in a database to be provided on the web and to chessbase, twic etc. And it's not easy to do that even when there's no crossed out candidate moves on the score sheet...
  
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barnaby
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #10 - 08/16/12 at 23:49:26
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In USA, current USCF rules does allow one to write moves before making them.  Their 'laws' have changed numerous times and they often even allow scratching out moves.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #9 - 08/16/12 at 20:35:43
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ghenghisclown wrote on 08/16/12 at 17:56:43:
Why is there a smiley face here? he blundered perhaps as a result of not being able to do this...and that's a good chess outcome??

It's not like he was generating lines...is this really  form of cheating?



The smiley face is there because I'm an a-hole.  I thought that most other players would also feel happy at winning an easy game after their opponent had broken the rules, but apparently only us a-holes get happy when something like that happens.

And it doesn't matter whether you regard it as cheating or not; it's against the rules.  My opponent was not penalized in any way, I wasn't awarded any extra time, he was merely told to stop breaking the rules and then blundered 5-10 moves later, and this is how I felt:  Smiley
  
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GeneM
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #8 - 08/16/12 at 19:27:56
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gwnn wrote on 08/16/12 at 15:07:10:
Is it allowed to write down candidate moves on your score sheet?

I see often people writing the remaining time next to moves, but sometimes also other moves. I imagine writing down whole variations is clearly illegal.

The scoresheet is for recording what has happened, not for what might happen.

Still, it might almost be tolerable if, but only if, erasing and replacing the prematurely written move is forbidden.
But even this creates problems: What about cases where the written move is illegal (would put own king in check or whatever)?
What about electronic scoresheets that display the current position after each notated move?




A few years ago, the USCF delegates acted foolishly by changing the USCF rules to explicitly allow the player to prematurely record his own move, and to further allow the player to erase his premature move and replace it with another move: the only limitation was the player could erase & replace his premature move only one time each move (thus 60 times in a 60 move-pair game). This is simply note taking.
They tried to justify this rule change by saying (A) as a practical matter lots of trainers tell kids to prematurely write their move and the USCF has to live with that reality, and (B) we cannot read the player's mind so we cannot prove that what he is writing has any beneficial note-taking effect.

I think the USCF delegates changed the rule again within two years, back part way to make it harder to take notes (but I got lost in the complicated details).




Time notations should be allowed. Draw offers must be recorded.

Each player's scoresheet should be plainly visible at all times to anyone standing nearby. This includes electronic scoresheets.
  

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Girkassa
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Re: quick rules question
Reply #7 - 08/16/12 at 19:26:26
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If you use a method that is not allowed, and it helps you from blundering, you are cheating IMO. Blunders are part of the game, and if you get better at avoiding them, you become a better player.

But I can also see situations where it does not just prevent you from blundering. Imagine the following situation:

You arrive in a complex position and realize that you should take a long think. You see four candidate moves, let's call them move A, B, C and D. After 15 minutes of thinking, you have analyzed move A, B and C, and come to the conclusion that move A is the strongest. Now, were there any other candidate moves left to analyze?

Having analyzed for 15 intense minutes, it is not necessarily easy to keep track of you analysis in your head. Maybe you end up forgetting to analyze move D (which happens to be the strongest move), and end up playing move A, not a bad move, but not the strongest. Or maybe you end up spending more time going through the position in order to "re-find" move D.

In this case, writing down the four candidate moves helps to keep track of your analysis, and thus helps finding the best move. Should it be allowed? I wouldn't protest loudly if FIDE changed their rules and allowed it. But as long as it is not allowed, I look at it as cheating.
  
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