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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) alternative to fischer-random chess (Read 17518 times)
brabo
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #39 - 09/10/12 at 19:34:11
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MartinC wrote on 09/10/12 at 15:33:29:
Actually about 'sitting duck' repitoires - I think you're very much overestimating what it takes to use them at club level.

There's plenty of people I can think of who have very bullet porous sitting duck repertoires but get on entirely happily at club level despite this. 

It does of course get a little bit different once you're on databases etc with opponents having time to prepare.

The alternative of course would be to eliminate opening theory almost totally from your games by just picking a random main line to play before every game. If super GM's give up preparing for say Ivanchuk due to this then what would a club level player be likely to do?!!?

I agree that many clubplayers are playing like a sitting duck without having done serious analysis or checking their repertoire for holes. In a club where people just come to play without preparing seriously this can work for a long time.

I remember one anecdote of the beginning of my chesscareer where I met in my first club a player close to 1900 rating with a sitting duck repertoire. I studied intensively the critical plan in one of his favorite lines after which he lost the game without a serious fight. After that I showed the idea to several other clubplayers. They all copied the idea so every time he played the black pieces, he had to defend the dreadful resulting position out of the opening, generating loss after loss. In the end he stepped out of the competition as he didn't want to give up his favorite system and neither wanted to lose every game. He was furious on me that i showed the idea to the other clubplayers and spoil his fun.
« Last Edit: 09/11/12 at 07:12:51 by brabo »  
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MartinC
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #38 - 09/10/12 at 15:33:29
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Actually about 'sitting duck' repitoires - I think you're very much overestimating what it takes to use them at club level.

There's plenty of people I can think of who have very bullet porous sitting duck repitoires but get on entirely happily at club level despite this. 

It does of course get a little bit different once you're on databases etc with opponents having time to prepare.

The alternative of course would be to eliminate opening theory almost totally from your games by just picking a random main line to play before every game. If super GM's give up preparing for say Ivanchuk due to this then what would a club level player be likely to do?!!?
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #37 - 09/10/12 at 08:27:39
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Bridge is of course rather different to chess in quite a few ways but has very similar levels of depth. 

Certainly mostly agree with the rest though Smiley Still even if you don't play them as seriously as chess it makes for a nice break.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #36 - 09/08/12 at 14:37:15
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One of the goals of many chess players is to make it more attractive so that more players will play it; this would make it more financially attractive so that GM's and other writers can make a living at it. One format that hasn't been tried is consultation games either human versus human or human versus computer, but not human/computer versus human/computer. 

One great consultation team would be Garry Kasparov and Judit Polgar. As the highest rated male player in his day and the strongest female player they often play the same openings and have somewhat similar styles e.g. each often play the King's Indian and the Sicilian with Black.

What makes chess so difficult for a viewing audience at slow time limits as far as the spectator is concerned is that there is too much "dead" time between moves that has to be filled in by commentators.

With consultation games we could have the players think "out loud" i.e. a premium should be given to those players who are best at explaining what they are thinking when they decide to play certain continuations. Just put the players in separate rooms if it is a human versus human consultation game or the same room if it is a computer versus human contest.

What would be great in a human consultation team versus a computer is that it would be like the Perils of Pauline where the human players might consider some losing tactics which the spectators with their own computers could see; their "heroes" might be stepping into a trap and the spectators will "will" them to avoid it!

One player would make all the moves so there would be no question who is in charge, but they would agree, for example, in the opening, "Let's play the Najdorf"

One of the players might be a chess teacher like GM Lev Alburt or other teacher/GM's who could talk to the announcer and explain things that a class player might ask. The announcer would have to be careful not to ask questions that might impact on the play.

This format would be far more spectator friendly and might appeal to a larger audience.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #35 - 09/08/12 at 05:58:53
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MartinC wrote on 09/07/12 at 08:44:10:
Ok Smiley

For me if someone has found chess to be getting stale due to openings, then they should play a bit of one of the multiple other really good games out there. There's quite enough of them, several at least on a level with chess depth wise. 


Chess is not only interesting because of its depth. You can play competitive chess in probably any country in the world not only via internet but also on the board. This gives you the opportunity to meet people, discuss the game, earn money,...

There are very few mindgames which have the same assets as chess. Poker or checkers is certainly not as deep as chess.  Shogy or other Eastern boardgames are not much known in the West which makes it difficult to practice. Bridge also has an established circuit but i doubt it has the same depth as chess.

"I’d prefer to play Fischer Chess, but in the absence of serious sponsors I don’t have a choice." David Navare see interview http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/a-lengthy-interview-with-david-navara-part-1-o... As long there is no serious money for other types of (chess)games (e.g. Fischer Random chess), these games will stay small and unimportant.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #34 - 09/08/12 at 05:40:18
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MartinC wrote on 09/06/12 at 15:22:12:
I think we'd gone way off topic already Wink

It's interesting because I probably do do that. I do have a routine repitoire for the unknown, albiet one I vary a bit. For repeat games I'm much more likely to do something different. Mostly out of interest instead of points mind Smiley

'Sitting duck' repitoires are probably not as serious as one might think at club level. Certainly my (rare) experiences of trying to use non trivial amounts of computer backed preparation have been that it's really not easy to subsequently switch back into playing 'real' chess.

It takes some practice I think, which most UK club players don't get.

To build up a more or less solid 'sitting duck repertoire' takes many years. This requires not only playing lots of games but also working hard at home to do often repairings or even more serious adaptations. On top you must possess a pretty good memory as it can take years before you can use some prepared lines. 1 example from last season: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/03/de-boemerang.html
I fully agree with you that this studying/working method is not achievable for most (club)players.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #33 - 09/08/12 at 05:25:03
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Stigma wrote on 09/06/12 at 14:45:41:
 
Interesting discussion. Maybe the solution then is to have one repertoire that you know by heart and play most of the time, and another "surprise" repertoire that you can look up and prepare for those games where preparation is possible? The latter doesn't have to be offbeat or weaker lines, both could be main line-based.

In the majority of my games pre-game preparation is possible. Maybe this has lead to me varying my openings too much actually; it might have been better to stick to one repertoire for longer, to really get to know it.

On my level (~2200) certainly some preparation takes place, but familiarity with the typical middlegames that arise from an opening matters just as much as getting a prepared line in. So there is a good argument for relying on a limited repertoire even when it makes you a "sitting duck" for preparation.

It's supposed to be good to get experience with lots of different position types when aiming for higher levels, but maybe this is best achieved by playing a limited repertoire for, say, 6 or 12 months and then switching everything, rather than jumping around all the time.

Sorry if I've veered the thread off topic here, but the question of wide vs narrow repertoire has always interested me!


Today I don't believe there is 1 ideal method of studying/ playing openings for everybody. This was also mentioned in my blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/07/tanguy-ringoir-is-belgisch-kampioen.htm.... Everybody has to find out for himself what works best and feels best.

Personally I am adopting a very narrow repertoire in which I apply the powerplay-method. Yes this makes you a sitting duck but I can count on my hands the number of times when somebody successfully shot a hole in my repertoire. On my level (2300) few people are willing to do the necessary studywork to break my repertoire for just 1 often unpaid amateurgame. In most cases when any preparation is done against me then it is mostly to choose a system where concrete theoretical knowledge isn't very important (selecting a setup as mentioned before by MartinC but nothing more).
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #32 - 09/07/12 at 08:44:10
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Ok Smiley

For me if someone has found chess to be getting stale due to openings, then they should play a bit of one of the multiple other really good games out there. There's quite enough of them, several at least on a level with chess depth wise. 

Fisher random vs orthochess I'm not totally sure about. Chess allowing for free buying of custom designed pieces can be a lot of fun. (Things like a bishop/3,1/2,1 leaper combination vs a queen, or the more extreme versions possible.).
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #31 - 09/06/12 at 19:47:49
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MartinC wrote on 09/06/12 at 15:22:12:
I think we'd gone way off topic already Wink

...

I don't really agree. The main reason for alternatives to chess is the claim that openings have become stale. For me, the best alternative to Fischer-random chess is ... chess. It's also the best alternative to any other board game.

But the discussion of opening repertoires and their role in chess seems very germane to the topic of what would be a good alternative to fischer-random.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #30 - 09/06/12 at 15:22:12
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I think we'd gone way off topic already Wink

It's interesting because I probably do do that. I do have a routine repitoire for the unknown, albiet one I vary a bit. For repeat games I'm much more likely to do something different. Mostly out of interest instead of points mind Smiley

'Sitting duck' repitoires are probably not as serious as one might think at club level. Certainly my (rare) experiences of trying to use non trivial amounts of computer backed preparation have been that it's really not easy to subsequently switch back into playing 'real' chess.

It takes some practice I think, which most UK club players don't get.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #29 - 09/06/12 at 14:45:41
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brabo wrote on 09/06/12 at 13:38:31:

I agree that if you don't know your opponents in advance that it is difficult to prepare concrete lines. However you can shortcut this problem by playing always the same lines so after some time you will get on the board what you've played/studied before. The big disadvantage of course of this method is that your opponents can prepare very well on you if they know the pairings in advance.


Interesting discussion. Maybe the solution then is to have one repertoire that you know by heart and play most of the time, and another "surprise" repertoire that you can look up and prepare for those games where preparation is possible? The latter doesn't have to be offbeat or weaker lines, both could be main line-based.

In the majority of my games pre-game preparation is possible. Maybe this has lead to me varying my openings too much actually; it might have been better to stick to one repertoire for longer, to really get to know it.

On my level (~2200) certainly some preparation takes place, but familiarity with the typical middlegames that arise from an opening matters just as much as getting a prepared line in. So there is a good argument for relying on a limited repertoire even when it makes you a "sitting duck" for preparation.

It's supposed to be good to get experience with lots of different position types when aiming for higher levels, but maybe this is best achieved by playing a limited repertoire for, say, 6 or 12 months and then switching everything, rather than jumping around all the time.

Sorry if I've veered the thread off topic here, but the question of wide vs narrow repertoire has always interested me!
« Last Edit: 09/06/12 at 15:46:51 by Stigma »  

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brabo
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #28 - 09/06/12 at 13:38:31
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MartinC wrote on 09/06/12 at 11:39:25:
Ok Smiley So you do only mean catching people in concrete lines. In that case its really rather rare at UK club level.

That's mostly because you don't know who you're playing in advance often enough, don't have any of their games on databases etc. Mind you the 4NCL (national teams league) is probably different.
(I'm somewhere round ~2100 converted but may well have absolutely no games in any databases.).

In that case of course about all you can is try and get rational set ups. The direct kills you get are when your opponents decide that they want to do something silly instead..... Which does almost happen often enough to count.

One of my conclusions of my study was exactly that below 2000 elo the influence of studying theory diminishes. Another reason for the average clubplayer first to work on other aspects of the game instead of the opening.

I agree that if you don't know your opponents in advance that it is difficult to prepare concrete lines. However you can shortcut this problem by playing always the same lines so after some time you will get on the board what you've played/studied before. The big disadvantage of course of this method is that your opponents can prepare very well on you if they know the pairings in advance.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #27 - 09/06/12 at 11:39:25
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Ok Smiley So you do only mean catching people in concrete lines. In that case its really rather rare at UK club level.

That's mostly because you don't know who you're playing in advance often enough, don't have any of their games on databases etc. Mind you the 4NCL (national teams league) is probably different.
(I'm somewhere round ~2100 converted but may well have absolutely no games in any databases.).

In that case of course about all you can is try and get rational set ups. The direct kills you get are when your opponents decide that they want to do something silly instead..... Which does almost happen often enough to count.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #26 - 09/06/12 at 11:00:03
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MartinC wrote on 09/06/12 at 09:19:35:
Humm, yes that's still hard to quantify Smiley

Suppose I do the work to purposefully pick a set up where I 'know' I'll get a sensible position by playing rational moves and then don't really learn anything concrete subsequently. 

Is that then a coincidence or success when it does indeed work? There's a definite improvement on knowing nothing of course, but it's not at all like you've remembered everything.


Selecting a certain setup from which you are able to play rational moves to get a sensible position, is the way Magnus Carlsen today mainly plays. He is not interested in theoretical debates but prefers to outplay the opponent later. This requires a minimum of studying opening theory compared to the powerplay-method which was the last decades considered as the only correct studymethod. 

I don't deny that some study is needed to select the setups like Carlsen does but it is not included in my study as Carlsens method is mainly used to avoid the openingknowledge of the opponents instead of trying to overpower the openingknowledge of the opponents.
  
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Re: alternative to fischer-random chess
Reply #25 - 09/06/12 at 09:19:35
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Humm, yes that's still hard to quantify Smiley

Suppose I do the work to purposefully pick a set up where I 'know' I'll get a sensible position by playing rational moves and then don't really learn anything concrete subsequently. 

Is that then a coincidence or success when it does indeed work? There's a definite improvement on knowing nothing of course, but it's not at all like you've remembered everything.
  
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