Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld? (Read 16431 times)
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #30 - 08/30/12 at 05:04:37
Post Tools
Thanks for everybody's suggestions in helping me find a back up defense to 1.d4, lots of great advice!

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #29 - 08/30/12 at 04:53:58
Post Tools
emary wrote on 08/29/12 at 22:28:19:
I would suggest the QGD, beginning with the Lasker: 

1) QGD can be used against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4  
2) It is very solid and a classical opening. 

3) You get the optimal setup against Queens-Pawn-
openings: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5. 

Especially 3.Bf4 c5! is a very combative line 
against the London. 

3.e3 g6 is a good line against the Colle and could transpose to 
the Gruenfeld. 

3.Bg5 Ne4 is a good line against the Torre. 

Cox has written an interesting repertoire-book against 
Queens-Pawn-Openings, if you play QG, Nimzo, 2C71797C797070782C4900, 
Modern Benoni, Bogol Indian etc as your main defences 
against 1.d4.

4) There are very good books on the QGD, I mention two:  

Cox: QGD. 
A black repertoire with the Tartakower, 
the Lasker, Short's line against the QGD-exchange and 
the Bb4 line against the Catalan, 
a solid line against 5.Bf4 and 
what Black can do if White avoids the main lines. 


Sadler: Queens Gambit Declined
Sadler teaches the Lasker, the Tartakower, the Orthodox, 
Bf4-lines, Bxf6 lines and QGD-exchange lines. 
He uses an instructive question-answer format, 
I like this book very much.  

Btw: 
If you don't like the QGD-exchange, 
then offering a Semi-Tarrasch could be a 
surprise weapon: 
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 
Now 5.Nxd5 exd5 is nothing for White, because 
after ...c6 White has no pressure against d5. 
Black has already exchanged a pair of knights and 
has easy development.   

Critical is 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 c5 7.Rb1!?  
(7.Nf3 is natural and transposes to the 
Semi-Tarrasch. This line is very well worked out. 
A IM has told me, that this line is very difficult to win 
for White if Black is well prepared, he avoids it with White. 
But in the other lines the Semi-Tarrasch is solid. 
 



Actually the QGD is probably what I will end up going with, but also look at the a6 Slav.
And Cox's New book Declining the Queens Gambit is the book I was considering.

As far as sidelins I am waiting for the book Grandmaster Repertoire 11 - Beating 1.d4 Sidelines by Boris Avrukh to be released this year, Boris plays the Grunfeld and also the book is supposed to cover the sidelines no mater how you anwser 1.d4.  Should be good Im sure!

Thanks for the suggestion, have experimented with the QGD a little, just looked at a couple of a6 Slave games.  the next step will to be to try out a couple of openings in blitz.


Also after years of Chess I still do not have a consistant  anwser to the English opening, which I think the QGD might also work well.  

thanks!

Smiley

« Last Edit: 08/30/12 at 06:36:01 by Michael Wilde »  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #28 - 08/30/12 at 04:35:46
Post Tools
chk wrote on 08/29/12 at 08:33:50:
Unfortunately, the Noteboom & Marshall Gambit require knowing many concrete lines.


Yes, I rarely like to play marshall gambit sylte positions  from the black side.  I don't really like grabing pawns in the opening and then playing catch up in develpoment, with the exception of looking forward to at least taking a look at the Delayed Poision Pawn in the Najdorf when Grandmaster 6 2nd edition comes out!

Cool

  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emary
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 151
Joined: 07/26/08
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #27 - 08/29/12 at 22:28:19
Post Tools
I would suggest the QGD, beginning with the Lasker: 

1) QGD can be used against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4  
2) It is very solid and a classical opening. 

3) You get the optimal setup against Queens-Pawn-
openings: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5. 

Especially 3.Bf4 c5! is a very combative line 
against the London. 

3.e3 g6 is a good line against the Colle and could transpose to 
the Gruenfeld. 

3.Bg5 Ne4 is a good line against the Torre. 

Cox has written an interesting repertoire-book against 
Queens-Pawn-Openings, if you play QG, Nimzo, QID, 
Modern Benoni, Bogol Indian etc as your main defences 
against 1.d4.

4) There are very good books on the QGD, I mention two:  

Cox: QGD. 
A black repertoire with the Tartakower, 
the Lasker, Short's line against the QGD-exchange and 
the Bb4 line against the Catalan, 
a solid line against 5.Bf4 and 
what Black can do if White avoids the main lines. 


Sadler: Queens Gambit Declined
Sadler teaches the Lasker, the Tartakower, the Orthodox, 
Bf4-lines, Bxf6 lines and QGD-exchange lines. 
He uses an instructive question-answer format, 
I like this book very much.  

Btw: 
If you don't like the QGD-exchange, 
then offering a Semi-Tarrasch could be a 
surprise weapon: 
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 
Now 5.Nxd5 exd5 is nothing for White, because 
after ...c6 White has no pressure against d5. 
Black has already exchanged a pair of knights and 
has easy development.   

Critical is 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 c5 7.Rb1!?  
(7.Nf3 is natural and transposes to the 
Semi-Tarrasch. This line is very well worked out. 
A IM has told me, that this line is very difficult to win 
for White if Black is well prepared, he avoids it with White. 
But in the other lines the Semi-Tarrasch is solid. 
 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #26 - 08/29/12 at 21:29:32
Post Tools
I think that 4..Bb4 is a sound and practical way to handle/avoid the insane Marshall gambit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #25 - 08/29/12 at 08:33:50
Post Tools
Unfortunately, the Noteboom & Marshall Gambit require knowing many concrete lines.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #24 - 08/28/12 at 19:15:54
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 08/28/12 at 08:21:47:
Triangle have some similarities to Gruenfeld. Game is unbalanced and sharp. I think you can like it even more than a6 slav.


So then we are talking about the Noteboom and the Marshall Gambit positions correct?


The Triangle System: Noteboom, Marshall Gambit and other Semi-Slav Triangle lines (Everyman Chess) 
Ruslan Scherbakov

Isn't the noteboom very positional and closed, just asking, I will have to learn it sooner or later but was avoiding it with the Marshall or Qc2 as white.

Still working on my 1.d4 rep, and just recieved Playing 1.d4 the Queens Gambit 2nd edition, have not yet studied the traingle systems from the white side, and I have the first edition too.  And there is no recent book coverage of the Marshall so may have to learn the lines in this book.  Or look into really learning the Marshall.  Have not decided yet, but maybe the best thing to do is to learn both and play one according to your opp. or you own mood that day.  Sometimes I like an open fight, other days I want to play more positionally and take less risks, probably best to learn both lines!

Smiley  

  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #23 - 08/28/12 at 19:10:02
Post Tools
JEH wrote on 08/28/12 at 10:31:31:
gramsci wrote on 08/28/12 at 09:24:20:
Michael Wilde wrote on 08/26/12 at 23:44:01:
Does anyone else play the Grunfeld and have a problem with finding a second back up opening that they like.  I know the KID is supposed to go well with the Grunfeld but I don't like the KID at all

Why? Kasparov, Vachier Lagrave, Svidler, Grischuk, etc... and others reknown Grunfeld palyers have also played the KID.



Possibly Michael doesn't like the blocked pawn centres from the KID classical, however 7. ...exd4 followed by c6/d5 blasts the centre open for some active piece play, and looks more like a Grunfeld style. 

There's a series of videos by Ronen Har-Zvi in ICC, and it's got some attention from some very high level players.


Exactly!  I do not like the blocked pawn center, but more than that I do not like attacking on the same side as my king, I don't feel comfortable with an open king, even though I know it is a closed opening. In the Grunfeld the king feels safer to me and you can attack on the queenside, I guess it is just a matter of taste I have played most of the openings that Kasparov played because I love his style, but the KID never appealed to me, althought exchanging in the center does sound more appealing, I have always preferred to play the white side of the KID. 

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #22 - 08/28/12 at 10:31:31
Post Tools
gramsci wrote on 08/28/12 at 09:24:20:
Michael Wilde wrote on 08/26/12 at 23:44:01:
Does anyone else play the Grunfeld and have a problem with finding a second back up opening that they like.  I know the KID is supposed to go well with the Grunfeld but I don't like the KID at all

Why? Kasparov, Vachier Lagrave, Svidler, Grischuk, etc... and others reknown Grunfeld palyers have also played the KID.



Possibly Michael doesn't like the blocked pawn centres from the KID classical, however 7. ...exd4 followed by c6/d5 blasts the centre open for some active piece play, and looks more like a Grunfeld style. 

There's a series of videos by Ronen Har-Zvi in ICC, and it's got some attention from some very high level players.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gramsci
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 210
Joined: 11/11/09
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #21 - 08/28/12 at 09:24:20
Post Tools
Michael Wilde wrote on 08/26/12 at 23:44:01:
Does anyone else play the Grunfeld and have a problem with finding a second back up opening that they like.  I know the KID is supposed to go well with the Grunfeld but I don't like the KID at all

Why? Kasparov, Vachier Lagrave, Svidler, Grischuk, etc... and others reknown Grunfeld palyers have also played the KID.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #20 - 08/28/12 at 08:21:47
Post Tools
Triangle have some similarities to Gruenfeld. Game is unbalanced and sharp. I think you can like it even more than a6 slav.
  

2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #19 - 08/28/12 at 01:49:53
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 08/27/12 at 21:05:38:
Triangle systems are ok. I play Gruenfeld and triangle lines.


If I Like the a6 Slav then I might check out the Triangle systems...Thanks

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #18 - 08/27/12 at 21:31:16
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 08/27/12 at 09:53:13:
White has so many options, so playing the grunfeld takes lots of work for Black - why switching to a second opening? 
The grunfeld is sound, creates imbalances, so black can play for a win - what else to expect?


Don't want to give up the Grunfeld only add a back-up opening to my rep.  So as to learn more about chess in general and not be so predictable!

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #17 - 08/27/12 at 21:28:55
Post Tools
Mortal Games wrote on 08/27/12 at 18:01:57:
Chebanenko Slav is a good choice or QGD (important from historical point of view of development of more complex systems after that, and I think there is no great player that do not know it) because it is important for a player to develop diferent skils like attack and defence to be a balanced player and I prefer this choice to another sharp opening.



Yes I agree, knowing different postions is crucial for improvemnet, I may experiment with the QGD and a6 Slav, one of the Benifits if the QGD was that I would learn to play some defense!

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Wilde
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 163
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Joined: 02/22/12
Re: Back up defense that goes with the Grunfeld?
Reply #16 - 08/27/12 at 21:26:00
Post Tools
gwnn wrote on 08/27/12 at 09:12:09:
The Bologan book got good reviews I think (but it only covers Nf3, Nc3 systems). Also Sakaev's "Complete Slav I" came out a week ago but apparently covers the Chebanenko in 9 pages (!!).


Thanks!

Smiley
  

"Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone."-Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo