ChessPub Forum - C57: Re-Fried Liver

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #6 - 11/05/12 at 19:24:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #5 - 11/05/12 at 03:53:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	SWJediknight wrote on 11/04/12 at 22:53:59: In the 9.Qe4 line, after 9...c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 Nac7, an alternative for White is 12.f4, e.g. 12...Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8, and Fritz 10's openings book gives 15.Qf3 Qh4 16.Ne4 Be7. The position looks approximately equal to me with White's two pawns and strong centre offering enough compensation for the piece. After 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, I recommend 14.Qf3+ (if 14.0-0, then I recall that Master_Om's suggestion 14...Nf6 was slightly better for Black, and Sloughter's 14...Bd6 may also be similarly good) 14...Kg8 15.Ne4 with another messy and roughly equal position. However I don't regard 9.Qe4 to be as promising as 9.0-0 and 9.Bb3. Fritz 12's opening book is flawed; clearly 12.f4 is better than 12.Bf4; White wants to capture on e5 with the f-pawn. All White has to do to get a decent game is to exchange on e5 with the f-pawn, clear out the pieces in front of the c-pawn and play c4. Here is one possible move order to accomplish this: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Qe4 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 Nc7 12.f4 Qh4ch 13.g3 Qg4 14.O-O Ke7 15.Be2! Qf5 16.fxe5 Qxe4 17.Nxe4 Bh3 18.Rf2 Ne6 19.c4 Nxd4 (Nb6 20.Be3/Rd1 +/=) 20.cxd5 Nxe2ch 21.Rxe2 cxd5 22.Nc3 =.
	« Last Edit: 11/05/12 at 12:25:57 by sloughter »

	IP Logged

SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 916 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #4 - 11/04/12 at 22:53:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the 9.Qe4 line, after 9...c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 Nac7, an alternative for White is 12.f4, e.g. 12...Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8, and Fritz 10's openings book gives 15.Qf3 Qh4 16.Ne4 Be7. The position looks approximately equal to me with White's two pawns and strong centre offering enough compensation for the piece. After 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, I recommend 14.Qf3+ (if 14.0-0, then I recall that Master_Om's suggestion 14...Nf6 was slightly better for Black, and Sloughter's 14...Bd6 may also be similarly good) 14...Kg8 15.Ne4 with another messy and roughly equal position. However I don't regard 9.Qe4 to be as promising as 9.0-0 and 9.Bb3.


	IP Logged

sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #3 - 11/04/12 at 21:09:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/04/12 at 05:22:46: Here are the first few moves in PGN: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Kd7 * Download game in pgn format It is beginning to look like 9.Bb3 is the only try for an advantage in the 5...Nxd5 line. Dan Heisman, July 10, 2010, "Two Knights' Defense: 5...Nxd5 Vindicated,", Chess Life, 32-33 has shown convincingly that 6.d4 Nxd4! give Black a fully equal and often superior game. According to Dan, "Upon finding these assessments, I sent some of this analysis to both New In Chess and, for confirmation's sake, GM Larry Kaufman, who worked on Rybka's evaluation function and now works with Don Dailey on a new computer project, Komodo." "He reported that based on my suggestions Komodo was showing no (!) theoretical White advantage after 6.d4..." Now we can probably put in the category of inadequate compensation for the piece the following move order that has been regarded as a "safe" alternative for White yielding a small White advantage. Both Fritz 12 and Houdini indicate this variation is =/+: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Qe4?! c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 Nc7 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6 14.O-O Bd6! 15.f4 Bxe5 16.fxe5ch Kg8 Black will complete his development with Qg5/h5/Rh6/Kh8/Rc8 or Rd8. One threat if White tries a Rook lift i.e. Rf3 then Black can continue h4 taking away the g3 square. White only has two pawns for the piece. Black can complete his development and have a perfectly safe King.


	IP Logged

SWJediknight

God Member

Offline

Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08

Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver
Reply #2 - 11/04/12 at 12:09:16

Post Tools

Print Post

In my analysis file on the Fried Liver I gave the following:
(9.0-0 c6 10.d4) Kd7 "may be slightly less dicey (than 10...Kd6), but after 11.a3 (White should not go in for 11.Bxd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Qxd5+ Kc7 14.Qxe5+ Bd6, as although White gets a third pawn for the piece, it is clear that Black is over the worst) and now 11…Nxc2 12.Qf5+ Kc7 13.Qxc2 or 11…exd4 12.axb4 dxc3 13.Bxd5."

In the line 11.a3, I obviously missed 11...Nxc3, but following one of Sloughter's lines: 12.axb4 Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Qxd5+ Kc7 15.Qxe5+ Bd6 (15...Qd6 is met by 16.Qe8) 16.Qxg7+ Bd7 17.d5 b6 18.g3:

I slightly prefer White here due to having four pawns for the piece, although White has to be careful of Black's attacking chances on the kingside.

I agree that 13.dxe5 Kc7 14.b5 is quite messy and roughly equal, e.g. 14...Be6 15.bxc6 bxc6 16.Rd1.

In over-the-board play, though, I would rather be White.

I agree that the generally-neglected 9.Bb3 is also promising for White. A couple of years ago I regarded 6.Nxf7 as inferior to Lolli's 6.d4, but today I'm not so sure.

IP Logged

Smyslov_Fan YaBB Moderator Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #1 - 11/04/12 at 05:22:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here are the first few moves in PGN: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Kd7 * Download game in pgn format


	IP Logged

sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	C57: Re-Fried Liver 11/03/12 at 23:00:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jon Edwards in his article the “Re-Fried Liver” July 2009, Chess Life, p.32-34, covered most of the reasonable earlier alternatives in his main line. I analyzed this variation with Houdini 2 and Fritz 12; Jon recommended following the advice of World Champion Estrin. Here is the critical variation not analyzed by Jon: 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7! Jon gives A)10…Bd6 (Estrin’s main line), B10…Nxc2, C)10…exd4 D)10…Qf6 E)10…b5 & F)10…Be7, but not 10…Kd7. After 10…Kd7 White wins a lot of pawns but gives up the initiative: 11.Bxd5?! Bxd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Qxd5ch Kc7 14.Qxe5ch Bd6! 15.Qxg7ch Bd7 16.d5 b6! 17.a4?! (g3 Qf8 = to =/+) Qh4 18.g3 Rhg8 = to =/+ but White can probably draw by just exchanging all the pawns and going into a theoretical draw of Rook + Bishop versus Rook ending. There is also a danger that Black may wind up with a passed Queen Rook pawn but the wrong Bishop to control the Queening square. White must improve so one possibility is to meet 10…Kd7 with 11.a3 (Now Nxc2 doesn’t work because of Qf5ch) Nxc3 12.axb4 (To open the a-file) Nd5 13.dxe5 (13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Qxd5ch Kc7 15.Qxe5ch Bd6 16.Qxg7ch Bd7 17.d5 b6 18.g3 =) Kc7 14.b5 = (But it’s complicated) Estrin’s idea, 10…Kd6 gives White better prospects than 10…Kd7 e.g. 10…Kd6?! 11.Bg5!? (Jon gives this as an alternative to his preferred choice 11.Ne4ch; probably both concepts give White a plus) Be7 12.Bxe7ch Qxe7 13.Rfe1 Kc7 14.Rxe5 Qf6 15.Bxd5 Nxd5 16.Nxd5 cxd5 17.Qg3 Kd8 18.Rxd5ch White has three pawns for the piece and the initiative. Jon’s idea is probably better: 10…Bd6 11.Ne4ch! Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.Bxa6 bxa6 14.dxe5 Qh4 15.c4 Bg4 16.Qd3 Nb4 17.Qb3 Be2?! (Jon suggests 17…Be6 18.Nd6 a5 19.a3 Qd4 20.Re1 “with a large and probably winning advantage”---Edwards) 18.Nd6! +/= An obscure variation should be the main line in my opinion: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3! This is one of three candidate moves that gain time; 9.a3 does not. If 9.d4?! Nxc2ch 10.Kd1 Nxd4 =; 9.O-O was examined above: 9…c6 (9…Bc5?! 10.O-O Rf8 11.Qg3 +/-) 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 (exd4? 13.Bf4 Qa5ch 14.c3 Qb5 15.Qe4ch Kd7 16.Bxd5 +/-) 13.O-O Rf8 14.Qg3! (Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Kf7 =/unclear) Kf7 (exd4?! 15.Re1ch Kf7 16.Qe5 Nc7 17.Bf4 Ne6 18.Bxd5 Qb6 19.Re4 Kg8 20.Rae1 Rf7 21.Bxe6 Qxe6 22.Rxe6 Bxa3 23.Re8ch Rxe8 24.Rxe8ch Rf8 25.Rxf8ch Bxf8 26.Be5 Bc5 27.Kf1 +/-) 15.Qxe5 Kg8 16.Bxd5ch Kh8 17.Be4 Qe8 (To stop Qh5) 18.Qg3 Bf6 19.Qd3 Nc7 20.c3 +/= White has three pawns for the piece, will centralize his majors and push his Queenside pawns.
	« Last Edit: 11/04/12 at 05:20:28 by Smyslov_Fan »

	IP Logged