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C57: Re-Fried Liver (Read 19405 times)

Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #21 - 01/15/13 at 17:10:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Where is the pgn-file? Any assesments for upcoming endgames. Come on - you can do better than that!


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #20 - 01/15/13 at 14:07:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 21:39:00: sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 21:15:31: sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 20:40:08: The alternative i.e. Na6 is marginally better "only" +/= after: Second move order 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4ch Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.dxe5 Nc5 14.Ng5 Qe8 15.b4 Ne6 16.Nf7 +/= Another variation is 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 12.Ne4 Nf4 13.Bxf4 Qxf4 14.dxe5 +/- 10.d4 b5 11.Bb3 Qf6 (exd4 12.Bf4 +-) 12.Qe2 Ke7 13.Bxd5 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 cxd5 15.Qxb5 +/- Game 11---Fried Liver 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nbc3 Nb4 Two things are evident from this position. The first is that the main line is wildly unsound i.e. 9.a3? I decided to take on Houdini on the Black side of the Fried Liver to see if I could score my first elusive win. 9.a3? Nxc2ch 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Nxd5 Kd7 12.Qf5ch Kd6 (Why anyone would want to play this with White is a mystery. Black has a lot of space to maneuver i.e. there is no mate; the threat to win the Rook at best yields minimal chances to draw. This opening in dismal for White. Houdini dislikes its chances so much that at tournament level it began to move really quickly. Apparently when the program is lost it tries to force time trouble blunders. For the first time playing Houdini I decided to do some quick calculation i.e. actually analyze the position. Play continued 13.Qd3 e4 14.Qg3ch Kc6 15.Qe5 a6 16.Qxe4 Qg5 17.Ne3ch Kb6 18.b4 Ka7 -/+19.Bb2 a5! 20.Ke2 Qh5ch 21.g4 Qg6 22.Qxg6 hxg6 23.Bxa1 axb4 (Note that both Rooks are officially liberated, not a good sign for White. 24.axb4 Kb8 There are many branches here, but the fact remains---Black’s King is perfectly safe, his Rooks are free and White is down the exchange for inadequate compensation. Clearly 9.a3 is a bad idea.


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #19 - 01/13/13 at 21:39:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 21:15:31: sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 20:40:08: The alternative i.e. Na6 is marginally better "only" +/= after: Second move order 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4ch Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.dxe5 Nc5 14.Ng5 Qe8 15.b4 Ne6 16.Nf7 +/= Another variation is 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 12.Ne4 Nf4 13.Bxf4 Qxf4 14.dxe5 +/- 10.d4 b5 11.Bb3 Qf6 (exd4 12.Bf4 +-) 12.Qe2 Ke7 13.Bxd5 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 cxd5 15.Qxb5 +/-


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #18 - 01/13/13 at 21:15:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	sloughter wrote on 01/13/13 at 20:40:08: The alternative i.e. Na6 is marginally better "only" +/= after: Second move order 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4ch Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.dxe5 Nc5 14.Ng5 Qe8 15.b4 Ne6 16.Nf7 +/= Another variation is 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 Ke7 12.Ne4 Nf4 13.Bxf4 Qxf4 14.dxe5 +/-


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #17 - 01/13/13 at 21:01:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	From above post: Third move order: 10.d4 Nxc2 11.dxe5 e.g. Bc5 12.Bg5! +-


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #16 - 01/13/13 at 20:40:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	The alternative i.e. Na6 is marginally better "only" +/= after: Second move order 10.d4 Kd6 11.Ne4ch Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.dxe5 Nc5 14.Ng5 Qe8 15.b4 Ne6 16.Nf7 +/=


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #15 - 01/13/13 at 20:24:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Jon Edwards is right, my 9.Bb3 is only good for drawing chances and no real winning chances. Here is some analysis/play against Houdini 3 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.O-O (Recommended by Jon Edwards) c6 10.d4 Kd6 At this point I let Houdini crunch a few moves. I went back to the starting point after 10…Kd6 and follow Jon’s suggestion of 11.Ne4ch! Kc7 12.c3 b5 13.Bb3 Na6 14.a4! (Before playing this game, I’d worked out the analysis to here. This poses major problems for Black) b4 (bxa4 15.Rxa4 +/-) 15.dxe5 Be6 16.Ng5 After either Qe8 or Qc8 17.Rd1+/-


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #14 - 01/01/13 at 09:43:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Richard Bean wrote on 01/01/13 at 00:30:46: sloughter wrote on 11/03/12 at 23:00:33: An obscure variation should be the main line in my opinion: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3! This is one of three candidate moves that gain time; 9.a3 does not. If 9.d4?! Nxc2ch 10.Kd1 Nxd4 =; 9.O-O was examined above: 9…c6 (9…Bc5?! 10.O-O Rf8 11.Qg3 +/-) 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 (exd4? 13.Bf4 Qa5ch 14.c3 Qb5 15.Qe4ch Kd7 16.Bxd5 +/-) 13.O-O Rf8 14.Qg3! (Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Kf7 =/unclear) Kf7 (exd4?! 15.Re1ch Kf7 16.Qe5 Nc7 17.Bf4 Ne6 18.Bxd5 Qb6 19.Re4 Kg8 20.Rae1 Rf7 21.Bxe6 Qxe6 22.Rxe6 Bxa3 23.Re8ch Rxe8 24.Rxe8ch Rf8 25.Rxf8ch Bxf8 26.Be5 Bc5 27.Kf1 +/-) 15.Qxe5 Kg8 16.Bxd5ch Kh8 17.Be4 Qe8 (To stop Qh5) 18.Qg3 Bf6 19.Qd3 Nc7 20.c3 +/= White has three pawns for the piece, will centralize his majors and push his Queenside pawns. In this line after many hours Houdini recommends 12... e4 with the idea 13. Qxe4+ Kd7 and then either 14. Bxd5 Qe8 15. O-O Qxe4 16. Bxe4 Nc7 or 14. Qxd5+ Kc7 15. Bf4+ Bd6 16. O-O Bxf4 17. Qf7+ Kb8 18. Qxf4+ Nc7 19. d5 Qf6 Having said that, Houdini must think there are improvements for white in the 12 ... Be7 line, because its evaluation of the 12 ... e4 positions is slightly worse for Black (-0.18) and its evaluation of the position in the line quoted above after 20. c3 is slightly better for Black (20 ... Qh5, +0.10). It doesn't seem as if there's a path to a clear White advantage in the 5... Nxd5 line yet. Both Fritz and Houdini also have a slight edge for Black after 9.Bb3 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4?! Qf6! (Not exd4 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Bf4 transposing) 12.Bxd5ch cxd5 13.Qxd5ch Ke7 14.dxe5 Qc6 15.Bg5ch Ke8. White has other plans but none seems to yield any advantage. It looks like Jon Edwards is right that 9.O-O is the best hope for a plus.


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Richard Bean YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1 Joined: 01/01/13	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #13 - 01/01/13 at 00:30:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	sloughter wrote on 11/03/12 at 23:00:33: An obscure variation should be the main line in my opinion: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3! This is one of three candidate moves that gain time; 9.a3 does not. If 9.d4?! Nxc2ch 10.Kd1 Nxd4 =; 9.O-O was examined above: 9…c6 (9…Bc5?! 10.O-O Rf8 11.Qg3 +/-) 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 (exd4? 13.Bf4 Qa5ch 14.c3 Qb5 15.Qe4ch Kd7 16.Bxd5 +/-) 13.O-O Rf8 14.Qg3! (Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Kf7 =/unclear) Kf7 (exd4?! 15.Re1ch Kf7 16.Qe5 Nc7 17.Bf4 Ne6 18.Bxd5 Qb6 19.Re4 Kg8 20.Rae1 Rf7 21.Bxe6 Qxe6 22.Rxe6 Bxa3 23.Re8ch Rxe8 24.Rxe8ch Rf8 25.Rxf8ch Bxf8 26.Be5 Bc5 27.Kf1 +/-) 15.Qxe5 Kg8 16.Bxd5ch Kh8 17.Be4 Qe8 (To stop Qh5) 18.Qg3 Bf6 19.Qd3 Nc7 20.c3 +/= White has three pawns for the piece, will centralize his majors and push his Queenside pawns. In this line after many hours Houdini recommends 12... e4 with the idea 13. Qxe4+ Kd7 and then either 14. Bxd5 Qe8 15. O-O Qxe4 16. Bxe4 Nc7 or 14. Qxd5+ Kc7 15. Bf4+ Bd6 16. O-O Bxf4 17. Qf7+ Kb8 18. Qxf4+ Nc7 19. d5 Qf6 Having said that, Houdini must think there are improvements for white in the 12 ... Be7 line, because its evaluation of the 12 ... e4 positions is slightly worse for Black (-0.18) and its evaluation of the position in the line quoted above after 20. c3 is slightly better for Black (20 ... Qh5, +0.10). It doesn't seem as if there's a path to a clear White advantage in the 5... Nxd5 line yet.


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #12 - 12/23/12 at 12:56:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	A friend of mine found a key attacking resource we have all missed in the 10...Kd7 line: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nbc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7 11.a3 Nxc3 12.axb4 Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Ra5! (I only looked at 15.Qxd5ch) Kc7 15.Rxd5 Qf6 16.Qg3 Bxb4 17.Bg5 Qc6 18.Rxe5! Bd6 19.Bf4 (Be7! Bd7 20.Bxd6ch Qxd6 21.c4 Kd8 22.Qxg7 Rf8 23.Qxh7 Rc8 24.b3+/=)Bxe5 20.Bxe5ch Kb6 21.Qb3ch Qb5 22.Bc7ch Kc6 23.Qc3ch Kd7 24.Qg3 Qb4 25.Ba5 Qxa5 26.Qxg7ch Kc6 27.Qxh8 +/=


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #11 - 11/07/12 at 18:12:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 11/07/12 at 14:21:53: sloughter wrote on 11/05/12 at 22:00:08: Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 19:24:57: Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move? I can't believe that the pawn capture, is good because it gives Black time to consolidate, hence I think the given line is better. If we extend the analysis a few moves, both Fritz and Houdini think that Black is doing fine; 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7ch Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7 11.dxe5?! Kc7 12.Rd1 Be6 13.Ne4 Qh4 14.Be2 Be7 15.g3 Qh3 16.c4 Rhf8 & Black is okay. I don't really want to claim that the Fried Liver produces an advantage for White, but I'm not sure that White is any worse. Personally, without being certain, I can believe that 11.dxe5 is good for the simple reason that it opens lines to Black's king. The e5 pawn is nothing to sniff at, either. I didn't look very deeply, but it seemed to me that after 11.dxe5 Kc7 12.a3 Nxc2 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Bxd5 Nxa8 15.Bf4, White may have enough to draw. Nor would I particularly wish to be Black except in CC. Has anybody ever examined this line? This line was not examined in the thread on 5...Nd5 a few years ago; the line given here looks equal. At a practical level I'd rather play the White side of this line simply because there are so many ways for White to get a winning attack against second best moves. The same is true of the 6.d4 line where the simple mistake 6...Bb4ch? 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O! & Pinkus has shown that White has a winning attack in all the variations he has looked at.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #10 - 11/07/12 at 14:21:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	sloughter wrote on 11/05/12 at 22:00:08: Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 19:24:57: Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move? I can't believe that the pawn capture, is good because it gives Black time to consolidate, hence I think the given line is better. If we extend the analysis a few moves, both Fritz and Houdini think that Black is doing fine; 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7ch Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7 11.dxe5?! Kc7 12.Rd1 Be6 13.Ne4 Qh4 14.Be2 Be7 15.g3 Qh3 16.c4 Rhf8 & Black is okay. I don't really want to claim that the Fried Liver produces an advantage for White, but I'm not sure that White is any worse. Personally, without being certain, I can believe that 11.dxe5 is good for the simple reason that it opens lines to Black's king. The e5 pawn is nothing to sniff at, either. I didn't look very deeply, but it seemed to me that after 11.dxe5 Kc7 12.a3 Nxc2 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Bxd5 Nxa8 15.Bf4, White may have enough to draw. Nor would I particularly wish to be Black except in CC. Has anybody ever examined this line?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #9 - 11/06/12 at 02:53:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 19:24:57: Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move? One candidate move I didn't analyze appears to rapidly evolve into a draw by repetition: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7 11.dxe5 Kc7 12.Rd1 Be6 13.a3?! (Ne4) Qh4 14.Bb3 Nxc3 15.Qxc3 Bxb3 16.Qxb3 Rd8! 17.Be3 Rxd1ch 18.Rxd1 Nd5 19.Bxa7 b5 20.Bd4 Qe4 21.g3 Qe2 22.Rd3 Qe1ch 23.Kg2 Qe4ch =
	« Last Edit: 11/06/12 at 16:58:00 by sloughter »

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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #8 - 11/05/12 at 22:00:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 19:24:57: Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move? I can't believe that the pawn capture, is good because it gives Black time to consolidate, hence I think the given line is better. If we extend the analysis a few moves, both Fritz and Houdini think that Black is doing fine; 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7ch Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Kd7 11.dxe5?! Kc7 12.Rd1 Be6 13.Ne4 Qh4 14.Be2 Be7 15.g3 Qh3 16.c4 Rhf8 & Black is okay.


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: C57: Re-Fried Liver Reply #7 - 11/05/12 at 21:20:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 19:24:57: Well, it's not news that White may not be better in the Fried Liv er. Critical is 6.d4, and for the time being, I will retain my scepticism toward Heisman's claim that 6...Nxd4 is adequate for Black. Sloughter, for those of us who don't save our old copies of Chess Life, would you please summarize Heisman's argument? But as to the Fried Liver, what is Black supposed to do after 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.0-0 Kxd7 10.dxe5, which seems to me to be White's likeliest move? Here a few lines of analysis from the Heisman article: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4! 7.c3 b5 8.Bd3 h6 9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4! 11.Bxe4?! (cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Qf6 13.Nc3 Qxd4 14.Bxg5 Nxc3 15.bxc3 Qg4 16.Rae1ch Be6 17.Re5 f6 18.h3 Qc4 19.Qh5ch Kd7 20.Qf3 fxe5 21.Qxa8 with an unbalanced piece and pawn structure but approximate equality) 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2ch 13.Kd1 Bf5! (Much stronger than Nxa1) 14.Bxc2 (Bxf5 Nce3ch 15.fxe3 Nxe3ch 16.Ke2 Nxf5ch 17.Kf1 Ne3ch with a brutal attack) 14.Bxc2 Bg4ch! 15.f3 Ne3ch 16.Ke1 Nxc2ch with a winning attack. 9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O a6 12.Ba4 Nb6 13.Bc2 Qxd1 14.Rxd1 Be6 15.Ng3 "...but Black's game should be playable". 9.Nh7 Nb4 10.cxb4 Bxb4ch 11.Nc3 Bf5 12.O-O Bxh7 13.Bxh7 Rxh7 14.Qd3 g6 15.Re1 &, "White has an initiative but Black should hold with 15...c6 or ...Kf8" 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.cxd4 Qxg2 10.Rf1 Bb4ch! 11.Nc3 f6 12.Qf3 Qxf3 13.Nxf3 Bg4 "with excellent compensation" or 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.f3?! (Just leaving the Knight en prise) 9...c5! Now a capture on d4 gives Black two powerful center pawns. 10.O-O f6 11.Ne4 Be7 12.cxd4 cxd4 "seems to provide sufficient compensation for Black"


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