(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Daring Defences to 1. d4 › Dutch › Classical Stonewall with Nc3
(Moderators: proustiskeen, Hadron, CraigEvans)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Stonewall with Nc3 (Read 22994 times)
Eclectico
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 99
Joined: 04/10/08
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #7 - 12/16/12 at 22:07:06
Post Tools
Agree with MNB that the Nge2 setups seem to have plenty of practical sting.  Frequently I find dutchies play Ne4 automatically without considering the initiative white gains by pushing f3.

I wonder if 4.Qc2 is an improvement.  This practically rules out the stonewall, since white still has Bf4.  Although white avoids any pawn structure damage in Bb4 lines, Qc2 is slow and really only serves to support a much later e4 break. Dunnington's "Attacking with 1.d4" covers some of these lines:

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3

... g6 4.h4

... e6 4.Qc2 d5 5.Bf4!

... e6 4.Qc2 Bb4 5.e3 b6 6.Bd3 Bb7 7.f3 with Nge2 to follow seems pleasant for white.

... e6 4.Qc2 b6 is a bit more problematic.  Any thoughts on how white can keep an edge in these rubenstein NID/QID type positions?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #6 - 12/16/12 at 17:00:36
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 12/16/12 at 11:07:45:
The 3.Nc3 repertoire I'm building is meant for a student rated around 1700

In that case you might prefer 4.e3 instead of 4.Nf3. Against the Stonewall and the Bb4-pin White can play a setup with Bd3, Nge2 and f3, winning the battle for e4. Against an I-Z setup White can follow Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa/Tel Aviv 1958, with 5.Nf3 and 6.Bd3. Black's best is 4.e3 b6 5.Bd3 Bb7 6.f3 (6.Nf3 Bb4) Be7 (Bb4 7.Qc2 and 8.Nge2) 7.Nge2 O-O 8.O-O with a tense struggle.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #5 - 12/16/12 at 11:07:45
Post Tools
JonathanB wrote on 12/15/12 at 19:56:59:

I have something like +4 =3 -0 from the position after ... Bb4.  I think this is mostly due to the fact that only relatively weaker opponents play it.  Obviously there can't be anything fundamentally wrong with playing d4, c4 and both knights to bishop three.

Still, I'm very happy when I see it.  += or =, I can't believe it's the most testing line against the Dutch.

True, the main lines are probably more testing. I normally play 1.d4 f5 2.g3 with mostly main lines and great results. 

The 3.Nc3 repertoire I'm building is meant for a student rated around 1700, who will likely face a lot of naive attempts to play a straight Stonewall or Leningrad come what may on his level. Though now that I'm spending time on it, I might give it a try myself too!
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #4 - 12/15/12 at 20:40:07
Post Tools
4...Bb4 strikes me as the most natural, and seems to have been traditionally viewed as the main move and as leading to equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 449
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #3 - 12/15/12 at 19:56:59
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 12/14/12 at 12:55:47:
4...Bb4 may well be Black's best. I think I'd be happy to play that line from either side, though I notice both Schandorff and Kaufman try to claim a White edge.


I have something like +4 =3 -0 from the position after ... Bb4.  I think this is mostly due to the fact that only relatively weaker opponents play it.  Obviously there can't be anything fundamentally wrong with playing d4, c4 and both knights to bishop three.

Still, I'm very happy when I see it.  += or =, I can't believe it's the most testing line against the Dutch.
  
www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #2 - 12/14/12 at 12:55:47
Post Tools
Yep, 3...g6 4.h4. White still has fantastic scores in practice, though you'd think Black players are aware of it by now.

4...Bb4 may well be Black's best. I think I'd be happy to play that line from either side, though I notice both Schandorff and Kaufman try to claim a White edge. There's also 4...b6!? 5.a3 Bb7 6.d5 and we're in English Defence theory, though White has lost the option of playing with Nh3, often considered the most critical.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #1 - 12/14/12 at 12:27:45
Post Tools
Against 4...Be7 Schandorff mentioned 5.Qc2 0-0 6.h3 and 7.g4 as an alternative to 5.g3, and there's also 4...Bb4 but I'm guessing you're already comfortable facing that move. There's also 4.f3 if you want something tricky but I wouldn't be unhappy with Black's position after say 4...Nc6.

After 3...g6 are you going with the 4.h4 hack line or something else?
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Classical Stonewall with Nc3
12/14/12 at 12:05:41
Post Tools
I am building a "tricky" White repertoire against the Dutch with 1.d4, 2.c4, 3.Nc3, the idea being to get both Stonewall and Leningrad players out of their usual setups.

But Black can still go for the "old" Stonewall with Be7: 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 (4...d5?! 5.Bf4) 5.g3 and now I'm happy to face the Classical Dutch 5...d6, but Black could try 5...d5!?.

I looked briefly at the database, but there appears to be no consensus as to how White should play this. Is it possible that the early Nc3 makes it playable for Black again? Can White try the same plan Avrukh uses against the Modern Stonewall, i.e. Bg2, 0-0, Qc2, Rb1 and b4? (In the regular move order without an early Nc3, Avrukh wanted to meet 5...Be7 with 6.c4 0-0 7.Nbd2 c6 8.Ne5 and Ndf3.)

Edit: Actually, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.d5!? looks very interesting for White, similar to a main line of the English Defence with a3 and d5. If this really is good it avoids the above "problem", and Classical Dutch players should prefer 4...d6 (although then they lose the option of playing the Alekhine variation with an early ...Ne4 often followed by ...d5).
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge