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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Stonewall with Nc3 (Read 22995 times)
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #7 - 12/16/12 at 22:07:06
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Agree with MNB that the Nge2 setups seem to have plenty of practical sting.  Frequently I find dutchies play Ne4 automatically without considering the initiative white gains by pushing f3.

I wonder if 4.Qc2 is an improvement.  This practically rules out the stonewall, since white still has Bf4.  Although white avoids any pawn structure damage in Bb4 lines, Qc2 is slow and really only serves to support a much later e4 break. Dunnington's "Attacking with 1.d4" covers some of these lines:

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3

... g6 4.h4

... e6 4.Qc2 d5 5.Bf4!

... e6 4.Qc2 Bb4 5.e3 b6 6.Bd3 Bb7 7.f3 with Nge2 to follow seems pleasant for white.

... e6 4.Qc2 b6 is a bit more problematic.  Any thoughts on how white can keep an edge in these rubenstein NID/QID type positions?
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #6 - 12/16/12 at 17:00:36
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Stigma wrote on 12/16/12 at 11:07:45:
The 3.Nc3 repertoire I'm building is meant for a student rated around 1700

In that case you might prefer 4.e3 instead of 4.Nf3. Against the Stonewall and the Bb4-pin White can play a setup with Bd3, Nge2 and f3, winning the battle for e4. Against an I-Z setup White can follow Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa/Tel Aviv 1958, with 5.Nf3 and 6.Bd3. Black's best is 4.e3 b6 5.Bd3 Bb7 6.f3 (6.Nf3 Bb4) Be7 (Bb4 7.Qc2 and 8.Nge2) 7.Nge2 O-O 8.O-O with a tense struggle.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #5 - 12/16/12 at 11:07:45
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JonathanB wrote on 12/15/12 at 19:56:59:

I have something like +4 =3 -0 from the position after ... Bb4.  I think this is mostly due to the fact that only relatively weaker opponents play it.  Obviously there can't be anything fundamentally wrong with playing d4, c4 and both knights to bishop three.

Still, I'm very happy when I see it.  += or =, I can't believe it's the most testing line against the Dutch.

True, the main lines are probably more testing. I normally play 1.d4 f5 2.g3 with mostly main lines and great results. 

The 3.Nc3 repertoire I'm building is meant for a student rated around 1700, who will likely face a lot of naive attempts to play a straight Stonewall or Leningrad come what may on his level. Though now that I'm spending time on it, I might give it a try myself too!
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #4 - 12/15/12 at 20:40:07
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4...Bb4 strikes me as the most natural, and seems to have been traditionally viewed as the main move and as leading to equality.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #3 - 12/15/12 at 19:56:59
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Stigma wrote on 12/14/12 at 12:55:47:
4...Bb4 may well be Black's best. I think I'd be happy to play that line from either side, though I notice both Schandorff and Kaufman try to claim a White edge.


I have something like +4 =3 -0 from the position after ... Bb4.  I think this is mostly due to the fact that only relatively weaker opponents play it.  Obviously there can't be anything fundamentally wrong with playing d4, c4 and both knights to bishop three.

Still, I'm very happy when I see it.  += or =, I can't believe it's the most testing line against the Dutch.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #2 - 12/14/12 at 12:55:47
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Yep, 3...g6 4.h4. White still has fantastic scores in practice, though you'd think Black players are aware of it by now.

4...Bb4 may well be Black's best. I think I'd be happy to play that line from either side, though I notice both Schandorff and Kaufman try to claim a White edge. There's also 4...b6!? 5.a3 Bb7 6.d5 and we're in English Defence theory, though White has lost the option of playing with Nh3, often considered the most critical.
  
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Re: Classical Stonewall with Nc3
Reply #1 - 12/14/12 at 12:27:45
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Against 4...Be7 Schandorff mentioned 5.Qc2 0-0 6.h3 and 7.g4 as an alternative to 5.g3, and there's also 4...Bb4 but I'm guessing you're already comfortable facing that move. There's also 4.f3 if you want something tricky but I wouldn't be unhappy with Black's position after say 4...Nc6.

After 3...g6 are you going with the 4.h4 hack line or something else?
  
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Classical Stonewall with Nc3
12/14/12 at 12:05:41
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I am building a "tricky" White repertoire against the Dutch with 1.d4, 2.c4, 3.Nc3, the idea being to get both Stonewall and Leningrad players out of their usual setups.

But Black can still go for the "old" Stonewall with Be7: 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 (4...d5?! 5.Bf4) 5.g3 and now I'm happy to face the Classical Dutch 5...d6, but Black could try 5...d5!?.

I looked briefly at the database, but there appears to be no consensus as to how White should play this. Is it possible that the early Nc3 makes it playable for Black again? Can White try the same plan Avrukh uses against the Modern Stonewall, i.e. Bg2, 0-0, Qc2, Rb1 and b4? (In the regular move order without an early Nc3, Avrukh wanted to meet 5...Be7 with 6.c4 0-0 7.Nbd2 c6 8.Ne5 and Ndf3.)

Edit: Actually, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.d5!? looks very interesting for White, similar to a main line of the English Defence with a3 and d5. If this really is good it avoids the above "problem", and Classical Dutch players should prefer 4...d6 (although then they lose the option of playing the Alekhine variation with an early ...Ne4 often followed by ...d5).
  
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