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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 349682 times)
Matemax
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #12 - 01/09/13 at 10:33:17
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20 years ago the topic would have been: "Sensational chess in Croatia - amateur breaks armada of GMs". Then there would have been a discussion and perhaps someone would have come up with the idea that outside help was involved. Further investigations and so on...

Nowadays we don't have the facts as topics but the presumed conclusions "Cheating scandal" - what a wonderful world...

The real question is not: "Did he cheat?" but "How could he achieve such an oustanding result" which leaves open more than one answer (but for sure does not exclude it).

And we all jump on the bandwagon...
  
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MartinC
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #11 - 01/09/13 at 10:16:29
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Well he has got some right to be at least annoyed and must be under a lot of stress. It's a rather serious accusation after all.

There is definitely a long term worry than in a few years (or even now really) it will be essentially trivial for a vaguely determined person to cheat pretty invisibly. Not precise moves or something but a signal as to the nature of the position or some such.

Objectively much more worrying than smart phone cheating. A time delay on live transmissions would be a very good idea.
  
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #10 - 01/09/13 at 10:03:18
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I think the real scandal here is accusing a player of cheating with no evidence whatsoever, and chessbase as usual jumping on it in a sensationalist way. 

A guy had a great tournament, the GMs dont like it, its fair enough if they have suspicions to raise them with the arbiter in a discrete way, but here we have the name of a chessplayer blackened with no evidence whatsoever other than he played a good tournament. What games I saw his play looked human and natural enough, I've not seen the Lilov video nor does it interest me much tbh. If it was me I'd be suing chessbase for defamation.
  
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #9 - 01/09/13 at 08:27:12
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Well, I don't know my compatriot, Mr Ivanov, in person, but we live in a small country and I know a thing or two about it.
First of all, he is not a programmer, but a student in the pedagogical institute of his native town, Blagoevgrad (situated one hundred kilometres south of Sofia). And he is also a member of the Blagoevgrad's chess club "Victory".
Although denying the possibility of cheating, Victory's chairman Marin Atanasov didn't include Mr Ivanov in the Victory's team for the National Team Championchip last year, even on the sixth board.
I, for one, going through all the Zadar games of Mr Ivanov with an engine, think that there was cheating happened. But, as long as it's not proved, I wouldn't state it as a fact.
What amazed me is that Mr Ivanov never wanted to show in public (say, through Internet in these modern times - Facebook, chess forums and alike) to defend himself with analyses of the games or whatever. All we heard from Mr Ivanov were insults and very, very bad behaviour in some of the Bulgarian chess forums. Of course, I can post links with some of his offensive phrases here, but the language he used is not appropriate for such a forum as Chess Publishing. In fact, these words of his were written in Bulgarian slang with latin letters. And it's beyond doubt that are Mr Ivanov's ones.
One of our Bulgarian IM's (now not competing in tournaments) even wanted to set a match between the two of them, while using electronic sets for a broadcast interception (or whatever they call it), but soon rejected the possibility because of Mr Ivanov's bad manners.
May I say that sometimes I feel too old when looking at some young men's behaviour?! Some questions arise - such as.. Is it normal now, in these modern times, for some young men to behave like this? Or is it just an exception - like this one, but that we meet very often nowadays?!  Embarrassed
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #8 - 01/09/13 at 08:20:18
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Well, I understand the point about the broadcast delay, but..."invitation to cheat"? Does that excuse anything?

I don't know if the guy cheated for a fact. However, I don't know exactly when they checked his person either, perhaps tipping him off. 
I don't think there's enough evidence now to do anything other than let the games/result stand. Having looked at the game, particularly the exchange KID (he had the Whites) and the English Symmetrical (Blacks), I think this goes beyond merely stellar results point-wise. He crushed and rolled-over people using a style he was incapable of only a few months before. 

It's possible that you can half a good result, but often luck plays a role. Here, he just had long stretches of playing tactically perfect chess, that's all!! That's what makes the result only part of the problem (I feel I have to repeat myself).
  

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GeneM
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #7 - 01/09/13 at 07:46:31
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ghenghisclown wrote on 01/09/13 at 04:30:31:
... it's tough to give him the benefit of the doubt ...

It is tougher to take the tournament organizer seriously, because he broadcasted the moves without a 15 minute delay.

By broadcasting the moves without the common sense 15 minute delay, the T.O. is announcing to all that he does not care much about cheating and the security steps that make cheating harder. (The delay is a good security measure that Frederic Friedel has been urging for many years.)

The person of interest, Borislav Ivanov, has done nothing wrong, until someone can prove otherwise.

The overall tone of the first chessbase.com article (newsid=8751) was improperly accusatory, despite their second article (newsid=8760) that tried to backpedal on tone.

. .
  

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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #6 - 01/09/13 at 05:59:18
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Markovich wrote on 01/09/13 at 02:41:03:
How sad it is that there has been enough cheating to cause a pall of doubt to be cast over every outstanding performance by an unknown player.

I think though that a statistical analysis would reveal that the chance of there not being an occasional excellent performance of this kind, without cheating, is quite low. The weather is not always normal, you know. And it's a funny thing, but no one notices when a 2277 has a really crappy tournament.


Someone on chess.com said that from ratings calculation, there was about 1/1000th possibility of a player doing that. Yet we have thousands of players going through such tournaments every year. Such results are bound to happen... without even including any improvement. 
  
Some of the other players gained about 1/3rd of the points he did even in the same tournament. Of course he could have been cheating, but we don't know.  
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #5 - 01/09/13 at 04:30:31
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Lilov's case (saw it on chessbase) looks pretty persuasive...in particular the situation where Borislav blunders a piece to a back rank trick and later on plays brilliantly in the same tourney.  Seeing the sacrifice of a bishop as Black against a 2600+ player for the Queen penetration...I mean it's tough to give him the benefit of the doubt particularly as it seems unlikely someone of 2100 to 2200 would consistently be choosing moves the computer either likes or thinks are ok. 
  

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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #4 - 01/09/13 at 04:07:53
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #3 - 01/09/13 at 02:41:03
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How sad it is that there has been enough cheating to cause a pall of doubt to be cast over every outstanding performance by an unknown player.

I think though that a statistical analysis would reveal that the chance of there not being an occasional excellent performance of this kind, without cheating, is quite low. The weather is not always normal, you know. And it's a funny thing, but no one notices when a 2277 has a really crappy tournament.
  

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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #2 - 01/09/13 at 01:51:14
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I agree with the idea of "suspicion" until proven guilty of cheating, but the story raised another interesting question in my mind.  

With little time to play tournaments today I spend alot of time analyzing my repertoire with an engine and then memorizing it via CPT and games vs. Houdini2/3/Fritz.  My analysis is quite deep into the endgame in some lines, and my memorization is gradually catching up.  Given my limited tournament play, what if I suddenly came back after a 1-2 year break with reams of computer analysis ingrained and delivered a breakthrough performance?  If I were to be suspected of cheating then this would be really demotivating for chess opening analysis (what this forum is about!).
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Cheating scandal in Croatia
Reply #1 - 01/09/13 at 01:31:17
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It's not a "cheating scandal", it's a "certain suspicion". They searched him and found nothing amiss so he is in the clear for now. It may depress you all you want, but I don't think Ivanov should be called a cheater unless/until something is proven.
  
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Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
01/09/13 at 01:04:17
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Strange that the following depressing Chessbase story failed to attract interest on this forum. Lets try to rectify that shall we.

Zadar Open in Croatia 04.01.2013 

"In this event, with 16 GMs and a host of other strong players, one participant stood out especially: the 25-year-old untitled Bulgarian Borislav Ivanov scored 6.0/9 points, with a rating performance of 2697. In the January FIDE list Ivanov has gained 115 points over his previous 2277 rating, gained in over 400 games over three years. A certain suspicion once again raises its ugly head."

Disturbing indeed, and certainly not the most pleasant way to ring in the new year. I truly sympathise with the current and future plight of the chess playing professional.  

Thoughts, analysis, conclusions and solutions welcome.

Regards,

Toppy
« Last Edit: 02/01/13 at 19:14:53 by Smyslov_Fan »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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