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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 349674 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #462 - 10/09/13 at 12:58:35
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Hadron wrote on 10/08/13 at 22:34:31:
People have claimed that the evidence is overwhelming when really it has been little more than anecdotal, supposition and accusations.


The problem is that if he does, indeed, have some sort of contraption hidden in his shoes/socks and simply refuses to take them off, then we will never have 'proof' of his guilt, so he will always remain 'innocent'.

Hadron wrote on 10/08/13 at 22:34:31:
Ivanov has now retired possibly as an undefeated cheat but without incontrovertible no one is really ever going to know.....So what is the point of keeping this thread going?


Let's see if he really has 'retired' first.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #461 - 10/08/13 at 23:33:13
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/07/13 at 19:20:02:
For me, perhaps the most scandalous accusation I've read in this entire episode was that a tournament was organized to exonerate him! This means that people wanted him to succeed.

If this is true, there is a very dark cloud over Bulgarian chess.



Totally agree.

I just think at a certain point, multiple witnesses saying he took 10 seconds to calculate incredibly complex variations against people 300 or 400 points above him, coupled with a truly lame-ass excuse for not taking off his shoes - would by now convince some parties that he at least is highly suspicious.
  

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Hadron
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #460 - 10/08/13 at 22:34:31
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Bibs wrote on 10/08/13 at 12:03:35:
Keano wrote on 10/07/13 at 19:55:19:
I hope they don't make a movie out of this one. Agree the organizers have a lot to answer for. We sometimes have to take off shoes at airports so for a suspected cheat it should be no big deal.


I rather thought that this may be the point of it from the start as he made little effort to cover the extent of reliance on software, to be shrewd about the moves. It is unclear tho how weak he might be without software. Dlugy discusses this. As an FM I could hide it fairly well I suspect, only using a few times a game, a GM even less frequently. Did I see some stats on that somewhere iirc...?
Bit of attention, try and score some kind of deal. 
He did the game a favour in a way - particularly in doing so quite so obviously and clumsily. Increased awareness now of this as an issue, people looking to intercept this. 
He walks away with health intact - he was lucky no one had a 'quiet word' with him.

Yes, yes, yes....You say (or directly infer) he's a cheat....but wheres the how? Dlugy reckoned he was using his feet....Georgiev seem fixated on Ivanov's hands and the fact that he played with over confidence...People have claimed that the evidence is overwhelming when really it has been little more than anecdotal, supposition and accusations. Ivanov has now retired possibly as an undefeated cheat but without incontrovertible no one is really ever going to know.....So what is the point of keeping this thread going?
Undecided
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #459 - 10/08/13 at 12:03:35
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Keano wrote on 10/07/13 at 19:55:19:
I hope they don't make a movie out of this one. Agree the organizers have a lot to answer for. We sometimes have to take off shoes at airports so for a suspected cheat it should be no big deal.


I rather thought that this may be the point of it from the start as he made little effort to cover the extent of reliance on software, to be shrewd about the moves. It is unclear tho how weak he might be without software. Dlugy discusses this. As an FM I could hide it fairly well I suspect, only using a few times a game, a GM even less frequently. Did I see some stats on that somewhere iirc...?
Bit of attention, try and score some kind of deal. 
He did the game a favour in a way - particularly in doing so quite so obviously and clumsily. Increased awareness now of this as an issue, people looking to intercept this. 
He walks away with health intact - he was lucky no one had a 'quiet word' with him.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #458 - 10/07/13 at 22:15:10
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No big deal, yeah!
So guess why he didn't take off his shoes!  Wink
A man who wants to clear his name would do even more, I suppose.
  
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Keano
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #457 - 10/07/13 at 19:55:19
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I hope they don't make a movie out of this one. Agree the organizers have a lot to answer for. We sometimes have to take off shoes at airports so for a suspected cheat it should be no big deal.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #456 - 10/07/13 at 19:20:02
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For me, perhaps the most scandalous accusation I've read in this entire episode was that a tournament was organized to exonerate him! This means that people wanted him to succeed.

If this is true, there is a very dark cloud over Bulgarian chess.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #455 - 10/07/13 at 17:03:01
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/07/13 at 14:26:17:
The most sad part to me, that no-one has mentioned so far, is that his "retirement" was forced because a player took a stand.  A player, not an organizer, not someone sent from FIDE or a national organization, not the tournament director, arbiter, etc.  

Player's should have their best interests looked after and protected, and should be free to concentrate on playing chess.  There was no need for a player to have to do this sort of thing; the tournament directors could have forced this issue a long time ago.  It does smell of some kind of corruption, or at least willful duplicity.


As I recall from way earlier in this thread the organisers have searched him on more than one occasion. The difference was probably that the recent tournament had wifi scramblers and other stuff so that he would get the chance to clear himself. But this time the demand to take off his shoes was not included in the tournament invitation...
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #454 - 10/07/13 at 14:26:17
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The most sad part to me, that no-one has mentioned so far, is that his "retirement" was forced because a player took a stand.  A player, not an organizer, not someone sent from FIDE or a national organization, not the tournament director, arbiter, etc.   

Player's should have their best interests looked after and protected, and should be free to concentrate on playing chess.  There was no need for a player to have to do this sort of thing; the tournament directors could have forced this issue a long time ago.  It does smell of some kind of corruption, or at least willful duplicity.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #453 - 10/07/13 at 12:51:24
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Not because of his results, or because of the matching with the Houdini moves..
Good players can always understand if they were smashed by a good GM or by a "machine guy".  Wink
I have a friend who played against this hero in Belogradchik (the first tournament ever won by B.I., almost half an year prior to Zadar). Some months ago he said to me:
"It was the in the evening after our game with him, when I told the others that this guy smashed me with an engine help. And they laughed at me.."  Roll Eyes
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #452 - 10/07/13 at 09:58:37
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Anyway, now that he has retired, FIDE should really consider hiring him as an expert to reveal future cheaters. 

An idea that might provoke some people here, but obviously he has a knack for it and besides, wouldn't we rather have him on our side than having him start his own Chess School?
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #451 - 10/07/13 at 08:27:43
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Actually, if you look,  it was just his results that originally kicked all of this off, in a manner which was somewhat offensive to common sense/decency.

Then the first sets of things matching moves against computers looked, to be honest, like perfect examples of self justification. Incredibly common with this sort of thing but also not really very helpful.

Getting suitably rigorously selected statistical tests/independent people for checking them would help an awful lot and looks like it might be happening.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #450 - 10/07/13 at 07:19:22
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Hadron wrote on 10/05/13 at 22:01:48:
and as a bit of an after thought, I wonder what the paranoia crazy train would've made of Fischers 6-0 basing of Larsen and Taimanov if it had been round in the day?

It's important to remember that what got people to call him a cheater wasn't his results, it was the fact that a huge percentage of his moves were equal to Houdini's. That's much harder to do for a human than just play at 3000 level.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #449 - 10/07/13 at 05:47:21
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/06/13 at 20:54:04:
I suppose Ivanov never actually analyses the game with his opponents afterwards? It would then become quite clear whether he was really so strong or not.


Yep, he never analysed even a single game with his opponents!  Lips Sealed
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #448 - 10/06/13 at 20:54:04
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I suppose Ivanov never actually analyses the game with his opponents afterwards? It would then become quite clear whether he was really so strong or not.
  
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