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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 349677 times)
RdC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #507 - 12/20/13 at 20:53:40
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/20/13 at 16:07:51:
Does removing him from the BCF effectively bar him from FIDE tournaments in any nation?



Basically no. There was a recent case where as a result of a dispute with the then President of the Federation, attempts were made to prevent the player and his wife competing abroad. The FIDE Ethics Commission stated that extension of a national ban was down to each individual Federation. 

In the UK, Congress organisers usually use a phrase on the lines of "The Congress reserves the right to refuse any entry"

There's a parallel thread to this at www.ecforum.org.uk ( Forum for English players and issues). That has a contribution by one of those trying to formalise FIDE's response.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5085&start=645
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #506 - 12/20/13 at 16:07:51
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Does removing him from the BCF effectively bar him from FIDE tournaments in any nation?
  
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Keano
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #505 - 12/20/13 at 14:52:19
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Of course it doesn't need to go to court! Its not a murder case, its a chess player with a computer strapped to his body beating GM's with computer moves and now being searched and found out!!!

FIDE is the regulatory body and can ban him, and will.

The cheater is no more.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #504 - 12/20/13 at 13:20:55
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Well, to discourage future cheaters it wouldn't hurt to make them break more than moral laws. I don't know about other countries but in Sweden doping is against the law, and even ordinary amateurs at the gym can be required to give samples for testing. And engine-cheating is the real doping of chess.

Actually, FIDE did have something similar for ordinary doping (don't know if it's still active), with one of the few suspensions for doping was a woman of about 1900-rating who had better things to do than provide a urine sample to the inspectors at her door... 

But if FIDE can take the right to send inspectors to people's home, then it should be possible to demand body searches of suspected cheaters at tms - though I do hope it won't become mandatory...  Undecided

Btw, the other day I jokingly asked a local weekend tournament organiser if they had a contingency plan if BI should show up. It turned out that he had no idea whatsoever, who BI was...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #503 - 12/20/13 at 12:54:06
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I don't know how FIDE works, or the Bulgarian Chess Federation, but he doesn't need to be convicted in court.  He needs to be banned from competing by the governing bodies of the tournaments he played in.  If he wants to go find another chess organization to play in, he can.

Alternatively if he decides to sue FIDE in court, I don't know how that would work.  I'm sure FIDE has some legal advisers that will consider that possibility, but I'd have to think that multiple players' and arbiters' testimony, combined with an expert witness or two that showed how extremely improbable it is that he played an engine's moves 99% of the time, would mean he loses any kind of court case, whether or not they confiscated the evidence.

I think that organizations like FIDE (and the NFL in America, etc) have a lot of legal leeway for setting their own rules about what behavior is tolerated, what constitutes cheating within the confines of their own game, and the like.  So long as they aren't clearly breaking a law (excluding someone from playing because of their sexuality, color of their skin, etc), the organizations can do as they see fit.  At least in America.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #502 - 12/20/13 at 11:12:59
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Keano wrote on 12/20/13 at 10:55:57:
ErictheRed wrote on 12/20/13 at 10:07:44:
Yes, I think that a device attached to his chest is more than enough to ban him for life.  Is a tournament director legally allowed to confiscate the device, or force him to disclose the method by which it works?  Of course not.  But unless he can show that it's a medical device, that and the high correlation of his moves with a chess engine's is overwhelming evidence that he's a cheater.

By the way, the letter from the Bulgarian Chess Federation in the previous link doesn't load for me.


Of course. He has been caught red-handed, now he will pay the price.

He should have stayed "retired".


Well, it still 1) word against word as BI denies it and there are no pictures documenting the device and 2) even if he had a device it could've been a mp3-player or whatever.

It's like getting Armstrong convicted because somebody saw him swallow a pill...

Of course, common sense tells us he's cheating, but proving it in court is another matter...

Btw, what does the lawyers here say, could "attempted fraud" be used to persecute a cheater in chess or is that a too wide definition?
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #501 - 12/20/13 at 11:05:07
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Here the Protocol Nr 8 of the meeting of the Administrative Board Of Bulgarian Chess Federation (Google Translated):


Quote:

PROTOCOL N 8
of Meeting
the Board of BF CHESS
________________________________________ _

On 08/12/2013 - 10:00 pm - Bankia Palace - Bankia

Today , 08/12/2013 , in hotel "Bank Palace " Bankia meeting of the Board of the Bulgarian Chess Federation . Attended by members of the Management Board - Nikolay Nedkov : Peter Marinov Haralampi Vanev Georgi Zhivkov George Bednikov Margarita troops Zivko Jekov and Janko Kesarovski and CEO - Nikolay Velchev.

The meeting had the following

AGENDA :

Single point : Discuss the events of Mr. Borislav Krastev
Ivanov, FIDE master during the period on 22/05/2013 - 12/08/2013 , the decision-making and in connection with them.
After the discussions of the BCF Board unanimously reached the following conclusions:
1. On 19 . 06. 2013 in the city of Sofia, " Vasil Levski " № 75 , in the lobby of the Sports Pavilion on the 7th floor front rooms 704 and 709, where the offices of the BCF was held previously scheduled meeting of the chess players , chess figures , professionals and journalists regarding any requests to and received from Mr. Borislav Ivanov Krastev call for specialized testing by technical means in relation to a declaration of the same - consent. Although it has been waiting for an hour 0 from 13 to 14 hours , it does not appear so fail arranged in advance and paid from BCF session with a lie detector in a specialized laboratory for psycho- physiological research.
The case has been drawn up.
2 . Chess tournament " Grand your open " in Blagoevgrad , held from 28. 09. 2013 to 04. 10 . 2013 02 . 10 . 2013 Mr. Krastev Borislav Ivanov sits down to play against Russian Grandmaster Maxim Dlugi living and working in USA / he is also a former chairman of the U.S. Chess Federation / and wrote the manuscript of his form , determined to move her chess moves the party , the words " machine" - " NEKAKAV clown ." This " clown " , however, required by the rules of the tournament to be checked both drivers to the presence in them of improper technical means by which it could have used the help of powerful chess programs , " suggesting " what course to be played on a chess board . Borislav Ivanov flatly refused to take off her sneakers , which left at all present unambiguous impression that during the game unauthorized use technical means. On this occasion, more than one or two Russian site wrote about " the deceiver of Blagoevgrad ."
The case is reflected in the judge's report for the chess tournament .
3 . Mr. Borislav Ivanov Krastev categorically denied his involvement in the rapid chess tournament " Alkaloid " in Skopje, Macedonia , held on 02. 11 . 2013, and the chess tournament " Memorial Edoardo Crespi " in Milan, Italy , held from 4th to December 8th, 2013 Both the denial of admission are due to reasonable suspicion on the part of the organizers that during the games are the same unauthorized use technical means guiding him through powerful chess programs to choose what moves in chess . It is well known in the chess world is that of the analysis of dozens of his party found that his moves coincide with the best moves that recommends one of the strongest in the world at present chess programs , namely the " Houdini ," which beyond the capacity of the human brain , and is a game and above the level of the game , the current world chess champion Mr. Carlsen .
4 . It is apparent from the statement of GM Kiril Georgiev made ​​at the general meeting of BCF yesterday , " glory " of the Bulgarian chess players of the Bulgarian Chess Federation , even in our country , now spread throughout the chess world by grandmaster stressed : " I go to play somewhere abroad , and I'm doing and do in many places, my acquaintance , including those of decades , players no longer tell me "Hi " and start talking with Borislav Ivanov and scheming his way of playing .
5 . Of 01. 12. 2013 Mr. Krastev Borislav Ivanov said on TV / You in your 7 / that in chess everything is laid down in advance , including the results of many parties and those of most tournaments that the best players you distributed the prize money by agreement , and not through the game and that he does not allow other players . This is not true.
6 . Currently goes express from Spain that the city Navalmortal on ongoing chess tournament there , Mr. Borislav Ivanov Krastev was caught with wires on the body, but categorically refused to take off his shirt to be searched for mobile phone therefore immediately a few rounds before the end of the tournament, he was expelled from it.
7 . By typing the name of Mr. Ivanov in the search engine " Google " , these and his other appearances with a negative sign , are common knowledge .
Based on the above findings, the Board of BCF concluded:
Mr. Borislav Ivanov Krastev was suspended for a period
4 months from taking part in competitions under the auspices of BCF , thus was given time and opportunity to rethink and re-evaluate their behavior as a chess player and a Bulgarian citizen. Ongoing systemic manifestations , however, is more than obvious that Mr. Ivanov has no intention to change , and play around without check unauthorized use of technical means , it does not prevent checks caused as a result of their own more than suspicious behavior , and cease to offend and denigrate Bulgarian players and actors , all of our Chess Federation . We, the signatories of this protocol , we consider the behavior Mr. Ivanov denigrate the world , even our entire country.
Therefore , taking into consideration the above, and that it does not correspond in any way the term " sports morality " and under Article 29 , paragraph 13 of the Statute of BCF , we took the following

DECISION:

Governing Board of the Bulgarian Chess Federation
OFF
FIDE master Krastev Borislav Ivanov from the Bulgarian Chess Federation.


Now he can play for Timbuktu, if he wants!
  
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Keano
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #500 - 12/20/13 at 10:55:57
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/20/13 at 10:07:44:
Yes, I think that a device attached to his chest is more than enough to ban him for life.  Is a tournament director legally allowed to confiscate the device, or force him to disclose the method by which it works?  Of course not.  But unless he can show that it's a medical device, that and the high correlation of his moves with a chess engine's is overwhelming evidence that he's a cheater.

By the way, the letter from the Bulgarian Chess Federation in the previous link doesn't load for me.


Of course. He has been caught red-handed, now he will pay the price.

He should have stayed "retired".
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #499 - 12/20/13 at 10:07:44
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Yes, I think that a device attached to his chest is more than enough to ban him for life.  Is a tournament director legally allowed to confiscate the device, or force him to disclose the method by which it works?  Of course not.  But unless he can show that it's a medical device, that and the high correlation of his moves with a chess engine's is overwhelming evidence that he's a cheater.

By the way, the letter from the Bulgarian Chess Federation in the previous link doesn't load for me.
  
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Keano
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #498 - 12/20/13 at 09:44:43
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Looks like finally some movement in stopping this culprit from ruining future tournaments:


http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/7611-fides-position-in...

  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #497 - 12/16/13 at 12:48:02
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TalJechin wrote on 12/16/13 at 12:34:46:


Surely, the first priority must be to find out exactly how he's doing it? Once you know how he's communicating with the device (on his chest / in his shoes) there should be ways to take measures for future cases.

If fide bans him for life without showing any evidence, he could probably drag it out in court for a long time - a bit like the Armstrong affair in cycling. Besides, he could also teach others how to cheat, and they may be strong enough not to cheat on every single move...


Not really, it doesn't matter how he is doing it. 

All that matters is that he has been found out. Searched and a device strapped to his chest.

As I said, needs to be banned now for life, it is in the capable hands of FIDE now.

  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #496 - 12/16/13 at 12:34:46
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Keano wrote on 12/16/13 at 09:22:47:
As I said before, it is up to FIDE now to take action and ban Ivanov, for life. 

Otherwise another fiasco awaits, it is not the responsibility of tournament directors worldwide to monitor cheats and bar them. Many tournaments are organized once a year by amateurs who love chess, they don't deserve their tournament ruined by this character.


Surely, the first priority must be to find out exactly how he's doing it? Once you know how he's communicating with the device (on his chest / in his shoes) there should be ways to take measures for future cases.

If fide bans him for life without showing any evidence, he could probably drag it out in court for a long time - a bit like the Armstrong affair in cycling. Besides, he could also teach others how to cheat, and they may be strong enough not to cheat on every single move...
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #495 - 12/16/13 at 09:22:47
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As I said before, it is up to FIDE now to take action and ban Ivanov, for life. 

Otherwise another fiasco awaits, it is not the responsibility of tournament directors worldwide to monitor cheats and bar them. Many tournaments are organized once a year by amateurs who love chess, they don't deserve their tournament ruined by this character.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #494 - 12/15/13 at 10:24:37
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RdC wrote on 12/15/13 at 10:20:41:
Hadron wrote on 12/14/13 at 21:59:00:
Considering many chess professionals and amateurs a like beleive Ivanov is cheating in tournaments, just why are Ivanov's tournament entrees being accepted? I don't know but are tournament organizers forced to accept tournament entrees under any FIDE rules? 


There are stories of Ivanov's entry being refused by a number of tournaments. It would depend on national law rather than FIDE as to whether organisers had the right to decline entries. The Spanish organisers claimed they didn't know who Ivanov was and his reputation. But they could have done more, it sets a bad precedent not to intervene during the game when witnesses claimed to have seen possible evidence of cheating (the reported bulge under the clothes).

There is a problem with allowing national Federations or FIDE to ban players. Such powers can be misused, as seen in the dispute between the Turkish Federation and the Ataliks. Individual organisers should usually have the power to refuse entry to their tournaments, if they don't have such powers, they should probably try to acquire them. Team managers too, in leagues such as the German one, should have a responsibility not to select players caught cheating, even where the Federation's ban has been overturned on a technicality.

  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #493 - 12/15/13 at 10:20:41
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Hadron wrote on 12/14/13 at 21:59:00:
Considering many chess professionals and amateurs a like beleive Ivanov is cheating in tournaments, just why are Ivanov's tournament entrees being accepted? I don't know but are tournament organizers forced to accept tournament entrees under any FIDE rules? 


There are stories of Ivanov's entry being refused by a number of tournaments. It would depend on national law rather than FIDE as to whether organisers had the rights to decline entries. The Spanish organisers claimed they didn't know who Ivanov was and his reputation. But they could have done more, it sets a bad precedent not to intervene during the game when witnesses claimed to have seen possible evidence of cheating (the reported bulge under the clothes).

There is a problem with allowing national Federations or FIDE to ban players. Such powers can be misused, as seen in the dispute between the Turkish Federation and the Ataliks. Individual organisers should usually have the power to refuse entry to their tournaments, if they don't have such powers, they should probably try to acquire them. Team managers too, in leagues such as the German one, should have a responsibility not to select players caught cheating, even where the Federation's ban has been overturned on a technicality.
  
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