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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Forward Chess for Ipad (Read 98387 times)
Semkov
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #55 - 09/11/13 at 10:25:23
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browniesbane wrote on 09/11/13 at 03:55:26:
In response to a comment above, I'd argue that these proprietary platforms benefit the readers as well as the publisher, because they allow for more features and a better reading experience. 

First of all, I think that most chess fans do not fully understand the situation with chess publishing. In my opinion, it is on the verge of collapsing. One of its biggest enemies is piracy. It is senseless to compare chess books with music or other mass stuff. When the labels deal with millions of copies, we are talking of 1-2-3 thousands of paper chess books. Even 50% theft rate would kill financially any project. Many smaller book dealers have sank or at least they do not pay their invoices to the publishers. 

Electronic books are the last resort for us. But an open unified format is impossible to protect. It has no future on the chess market. I even suspect that it is impossible to invent one. The closest thing to it is pgn, but it is unfit for a serious book. I tried to port The Sharpest Sicilian 2012 to pgn and failed. You cannot have multiple fragments, comparisons between similar positions, retrospections, in a pgn file. It can only have a linear structure of the type one game - one file. Any formatting of the text as new lines, frames and boxes, javascript functions, is unsupported - look at Everyman's viewer.

ForwardChess is not a format in itself. It achieves its goal of making ANY chess book interactive by using programming means in the pre-press process. (I guess, E+ is in the same pot) It takes quite a lot of work to prepare a book for it. On the other hand, the program itself is rather simple. Basically it reads html files. That means, the books should work even after many years, because all the new html specifications have backward compatibility. It means, investments in ForwardChess books seem absolutely secure. You can lose a paper book, but purchases from Appstore and Google Play are stored in the cloud and available anytime for re-download on any device. 
What if the competitors wrote a "better" soft? FC is a chess books reader. It will always read the books meant for it. A cat's color does not matter if it is able to hunt mice. The problem is how to make better BOOKS.
I would like to see one program for all the books, too. That's why, instead of writing our own app for Chess Stars, I welcomed Mongoose Press' effort and offered my help (and a fellow countryman programmer). Unfortunately, it seems that other publishers want to distinguish their products by offering them in separate viewers. That should not be a problem for the reader though. Finally, it matters what you read, not the app you use. We are talking about simple intuitive apps, not some heavy database products.
By the way, I support the idea to keep FC as simple as possible, true to its nature of a chess viewer.  

« Last Edit: 09/11/13 at 16:18:10 by Semkov »  
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browniesbane
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #54 - 09/11/13 at 03:55:26
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In response to a comment above, I'd argue that these proprietary platforms benefit the readers as well as the publisher, because they allow for more features and a better reading experience. It would be terrific if someone were to write an interactive ebook format that somehow could be a standard for all chess books. Lets face it, that isn't going to happen, and we will have to rely on the market to sort things out, and leave us with one or two readers.

Forward chess already has three major publishers signed up. I think thats a pretty good start; the more publishers that are invested in these platforms the less likely they will go away and the more effort that will be put in development.   

  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #53 - 09/10/13 at 10:03:36
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GabrielGale wrote on 09/09/13 at 23:01:40:
SmartChess was tied up with ChessPub for a while but that seems to have died.


I wasn't aware of this, although it's true they haven't sent us any money for a while! Sad
I remember they had to convert our CB files into their own proprietary format each time which seemed an enormous waste of time and money to me.

GabrielGale wrote on 09/09/13 at 23:01:40:
PS. Some time ago, I floated the idea that ChessPubbers who are very experienced in certain openings and variations should produce an e-interactive book and sell for $1.99. This is exactly what e-chess and NIC has done with its SOS series. Perhaps Tony Kosten will be happy to facilitate?


Sure, I'm happy to go along with any such idea.

Regarding proprietary formats, we always tried to stick to PGN game files and PDF eBooks here as they are platform independent, but made a number of ChessBase eBooks as they offered more possibilities (the popup game links). For over ten years I have been waiting for someone to produce some platform-independent software that produces real PGN eBooks, but only Hiarcs Explorer came close.
  
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GabrielGale
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #52 - 09/09/13 at 23:01:40
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/09/13 at 17:17:56:
I understand that Forward Chess is awesome.  I meant to ask, why not also publish books in a standard ebook format, so that more people on more platforms can read them?  

Also, I generally dislike "proprietary" software/file extensions.  What happens if another app comes along in a year and becomes the new standard?  Will a book purchased through Forward Chess be usable with other apps in the future, if a competitor ends up making a similar but better one?  Most ebooks can be freely converted from .mobi to .asz to whatever, so that they can be read on any platform or with any app the consumer wants.  A .pgn file can be used with any chess software, etc.  Is Forward Chess "proprietary" in this sense or can another developer come along and possibly write a better app that can also handle the Forward Chess files?

Am I going to start buying some Forward Chess ebooks, some .mobi ebooks, some .cbh ebooks, etc?  It seems cumbersome to me; it would be nice to buy a book in a standardized format that can be used across many software and hardware platforms (Chessbase, Forward Chess, iPad, Android, etc, etc).


I would like to second ErictheRed's sentiments. This is what has already happened with Chessbase DVDs (FritsTrainers). There is not mobile platform that can play CB's FT DVDs. Even its very own app can only deal with pgn files. I purchased a number of FT DVDs when I had a PC but have not been able to watch them when I switched to Mac (yes, that is my choice) and I got excited when I saw an Android tablet for sale for AUD99 at Aldi and thought , yes! I can buy that and watch the CB DVDs. But a little investigation online dashed those hopes.
In my professional academic work, I had a bit of a look at the battle of standards as a proxy for commercial warfare, the most famous example being VHS vs Betamax, then there was the BluRay vs HD-DVD. (The economic concept, I believe is network effect.) It is literally a winner takes all.

Last year and previous, on the "pages" of this Forum, there was a proxy "fought" re interactive ebook readers, ie, e+chess (NZ outfit) now supported by by and SmartChess (Hortillosa et al).

E+Chess has tied up now with NewinChess and you can purchased SOS individual chapters for $1.99 and of course books.

SmartChess was tied up with ChessPub for a while but that seems to have died. It also did QualityChess books but now with QC tying with ForwardChess, ??? It also tied up with Chessvibes, publishing CVOs and CVTs. It promises some new books but without signing up a major publisher, it will die. Only publisher left is Gambit. But Gambit's GM is GM Murray Chandler who is Kiwi and known associate of the people behind E+Chess. There is then Everyman who has its own Chessviewer (very clunky!).

These proprietary platforms are not benefiting consumers. They only benefit the business, publishers and app developers. Before I get flamed (or maybe not, since that is an exaggeration of my own importance!  Grin), I can understand publishers' need to secure their product from piracy and protect their revenue stream. But history has shown that these battles will cause losses to consumers who bet on the wrong "horse".

BTW, e+Chess is publishing a new translation of Nimzowitsch's My System. Hmmmm! A direct competitor to QC's translation a few years back.

PS. Some time ago, I floated the idea that ChessPubbers who are very experienced in certain openings and variations should produce an e-interactive book and sell for $1.99. This is exactly what e-chess and NIC has done with its SOS series. Perhaps Tony Kosten will be happy to facilitate? I think ChessPubber Micawber's excellent (Thanks Micawber!) KG files is a very good candidate to trial this!

PS 2, There are also a lot of talk on the Forum these last three years about "repertoires", new, changing repertoires. Consequently also lots of interest on repertoire books (why not!). However, it has been pointed out that a repertoire for U1800 or U2000 or U2200 is very different beast to the monster repertoires in books. I think the only example of a repertoire for amateurs in very recent years is that by ChessPbber, Derduea (? sorry cannot remember the spelling due to age) but published in german.

It would be good, if there exists a series of small e-books on different openings and variations which are aimed at the U1800, U2000, U2200 (in education design theory, this is modular design) from which amateur club players can pick and choose and experiment (thereby also broadening thier chessic education). I think ChessPubbers can do this. There was already some work done with the mapping of openings but that died ......
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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ErictheRed
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #51 - 09/09/13 at 17:17:56
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I understand that Forward Chess is awesome.  I meant to ask, why not also publish books in a standard ebook format, so that more people on more platforms can read them?  

Also, I generally dislike "proprietary" software/file extensions.  What happens if another app comes along in a year and becomes the new standard?  Will a book purchased through Forward Chess be usable with other apps in the future, if a competitor ends up making a similar but better one?  Most ebooks can be freely converted from .mobi to .asz to whatever, so that they can be read on any platform or with any app the consumer wants.  A .pgn file can be used with any chess software, etc.  Is Forward Chess "proprietary" in this sense or can another developer come along and possibly write a better app that can also handle the Forward Chess files?

Am I going to start buying some Forward Chess ebooks, some .mobi ebooks, some .cbh ebooks, etc?  It seems cumbersome to me; it would be nice to buy a book in a standardized format that can be used across many software and hardware platforms (Chessbase, Forward Chess, iPad, Android, etc, etc).
  
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Semkov
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #50 - 09/09/13 at 15:28:42
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/09/13 at 04:18:39:
Forward Chess might be a nice app, but what's the advantage of publishing a book for Forward Chess?

1. You can watch all the moves on a board. 
2. You can even play your own moves on that board.
3. In the Android version, you can also watch engine analysis.
4. Some books with puzzels can be used for training - after the question, there is a Show/Hide button to display the answer.   
5. Eventually, publishers might include (more) colour pictures, more colour in general in their books (without thinking of the money it will cost for printing.
6. If the platform becomes popular, publishers might start offering free updates - this is a plus compared to paper books.
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #49 - 09/09/13 at 14:24:04
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I see there is an Android version of this app available too. Anybody tried it? Sounds very interesting.
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #48 - 09/09/13 at 08:05:43
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Yes, that's right. A standard ebook will be just like a glorified pdf. Just a book onscreen.
Using chess viewers such as Forward chess you can play thru games and read the text.
I find it great - I am reluctant to buy standard texts now. 
Hope QC get sorted quickly on this front as well as Chess Stars. Holding off new buys till can have all on my iPad.
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #47 - 09/09/13 at 06:26:13
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/09/13 at 04:18:39:
Forward Chess might be a nice app, but what's the advantage of publishing a book for Forward Chess?  I mean, why not just publish an electronic copy that can be used on multiple devices?

I'm pretty new to the whole mobile/iPad/tablet thing, but I notice that I can buy a Kindle version of Play the French here: http://www.amazon.com/Play-French-4th-ebook/dp/B008HFW1ZW/ref=sr_1_1_bnp_1_kin?i... Why not release ebooks in "normal" form, the same format that I would use to read a new novel, for instance?

I assume in the standard kindle version you don't get an interactive chess board on which gets updated when you click on the notation in the book page.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #46 - 09/09/13 at 04:18:39
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Forward Chess might be a nice app, but what's the advantage of publishing a book for Forward Chess?  I mean, why not just publish an electronic copy that can be used on multiple devices?

I'm pretty new to the whole mobile/iPad/tablet thing, but I notice that I can buy a Kindle version of Play the French here: http://www.amazon.com/Play-French-4th-ebook/dp/B008HFW1ZW/ref=sr_1_1_bnp_1_kin?i...; Why not release ebooks in "normal" form, the same format that I would use to read a new novel, for instance?
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #45 - 09/08/13 at 20:29:22
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Fllg wrote on 09/06/13 at 18:20:56:
Honestly I wouldn´t have any other use for a tablet.

I'm biased probably, but when I bought my first tablet, all the family loved it - for books, surfing, and reading the press during the morning coffee. We have three now and they are often used despite the presence of 3 desktops and a notebook. My wife, who hated to read on a desktop, began spending hours with the Ipad.
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #44 - 09/06/13 at 18:20:56
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Btw, accidentally I have found out that Amazon offers a free ´Kindle for PC-App´ that enables you to read books in kindle format on a Windows-PC. If Amazon is able to produce an app with a trustworthy copy protection then surely something similar should be possible for Forward Chess!?

Maybe I´m a bit naive here but on the other hand there might be a certain amount of customers out there like me who are interested in purchasing chess books in electronic format but don´t want to buy a new device just for that. Honestly I wouldn´t have any other use for a tablet.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #43 - 09/05/13 at 15:03:56
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FYI, I've been communicating with the makers of Forward Chess regarding getting it to work on a rooted Amazon Kindle.  Unfortunately it seems impossible; because of agreements between Amazon and Google, the app is unable to set up in-app billing and just closes immediately.

I suspect that if I completely wipe Amazon's operating system from the Kindle and install an Android operating system on the device (thereby fully converting it to an Android tablet, not just a Kindle with root access), it would work without problems.   

I haven't done that as so far, I've been able to run any Google Play apps I want with just the rooted Kindle.  But now that I can't run Forward Chess, I'll give it a try in the next week or so and report back.  I don't use any of Amazon's services anyway (the Kindle Fire HD was a gift, otherwise I might have just bought an Android tablet to begin with).
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #42 - 08/28/13 at 18:08:36
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Thx Semko for your thorough answer
  
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Re: Forward Chess for Ipad
Reply #41 - 08/28/13 at 18:06:53
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LeeRoth wrote on 08/27/13 at 23:24:38:
On my iPad, it uses about 23 MB.  The app itself is 7.4 MB.  The books take up the remaining 16 MB.  I have downloaded the Dreev and Korneev books, as well as some of the samples, so would guess that each of the standard-sized books is somewhere between 5 and 10 MB.


Hmm.  Well, in light of Semkov's explanation, disregard my prior post.  

Indeed, I just downloaded the new anti-Grunfeld book by Svetushkin, and the amount of space taken up is now less than it was before!

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