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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement (Read 10993 times)
GeneM
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #16 - 05/01/13 at 06:22:10
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(ChessBase.com)
Zug GP R10: four wins, three with black

29.4.2013 - Veselin Topalov has scored his greatest victory since 2010. He beat his nearest rival, Fabiano Caruana and is now a full point ahead of the rest. Even if he loses the final round the Bulgarian will be the winner of the Grand Prix on tiebreak. His performance so far: close to 2900. Morozevich, Nakamura and Kamsky also won today, the latter two (like Topalov) with black. Full report with GM commentary.


http://chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4009659/zug-gp-r10-four-wins-three-wi...

Perhaps this is an example of how tiebreak schemes increase the risk of draining major excitement from the final round - what should normally be the most exciting round.
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TalJechin
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #15 - 04/02/13 at 13:10:31
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dfan wrote on 04/01/13 at 11:56:58:
The tiebreak is a little silly, but at least it won't be decided by S-B.  I am kind of glad that there is no playoff, because that would make it much more likely for Carlsen and Kramnik to both play it safe, make a draw, and go to playoffs. In the current situation they both know that Kramnik has to outscore Carlsen today, period. I think it'll make for more exciting games in the last round.


For dramatic value, instead of the rather anticlimactic present outcome, it would've been nice with two extra long games as a tie-breaker, and both knowing that Carlsen would win due to more wins in the tm, if the tie-break is drawn...

And the same concept of a predetermined winner if the match is drawn could be nice to have in the final as well (i.e. the champion keeps the title), to avoid a lot of quick draws just to reach the speed / blitz play-off.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #14 - 04/02/13 at 08:23:52
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A long play match would be even better Smiley

Probably not enough time to fit that in fully sensibly before the November title match though so fair enough. 

Can't complain much of course! FIDE have managed to organise a WC cycle to specification and the chosen set up got the three most likely candidate challangers closest etc. That's something of a miracle already Smiley
  
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FischerTal
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #13 - 04/01/13 at 21:46:39
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I think tie breaks have logical flawsmostwins = most losses, SB puts too much importance on games between non contenders, so I think a rapid match is better at least it is a direct measure of chess skills.

Of the tie breaks I do prefer most wins as that leads to competitors continuing to play rather than agreeing soft draws.
  
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dfan
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #12 - 04/01/13 at 11:56:58
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The tiebreak is a little silly, but at least it won't be decided by S-B.  I am kind of glad that there is no playoff, because that would make it much more likely for Carlsen and Kramnik to both play it safe, make a draw, and go to playoffs. In the current situation they both know that Kramnik has to outscore Carlsen today, period. I think it'll make for more exciting games in the last round.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #11 - 04/01/13 at 09:06:04
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Actually the tie break modus seems to be a really controversial matter, looking at this thread, the thread about the candidate matches and watching the live stream of the tournament, where this matter was also discussed.
I actually see how you could argue that a player who has one more games should win but on the other hand it also seems weird to let the person who has lost more games win the tournament. In fact this is actually the same has having classical score has first criterium and then soccer score (3 for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss) which has favoured Carlsen before in tournament. However before Aronian's losses it would have actually helped Aronian. As someone else stated earlier, I think using rapid or blitz as tie break is rediculous, because it's actually a different game and we are searching for a challenger for the classical world champion (although Anand defended his title in rapid games  Sad ).
  
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chk
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #10 - 04/01/13 at 08:30:12
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I see people continue bashing Anand. Myself I am more fond of Kramnik or Carlsen (tbh Aronian is my favourite), but firmly believe that Anand has a 50% chance to beat any of these players in a WC match. Maybe his team is better (e.g. see his opening preparation vs. Kramnik during their WC match). Moreover, he has still many novelties up his sleeve (see recent win vs. Kramnik).

imo this 'candidates' double round robin format allows us to observe who are the better players. But when it comes to WC, it is team vs. team..
« Last Edit: 04/01/13 at 20:49:38 by chk »  

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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #9 - 04/01/13 at 06:55:13
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It'd be ideal to have a long play match like those Russian championship tiebreakers back in the day or whatever. Not ever likely of course Smiley

At least its going to be number of wins and not sum of opponent scores who you've beaten/drawn with! That could have been very silly.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #8 - 04/01/13 at 00:48:55
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In a way you are right, carlsen and kramnika are the 2 best players in the world, anand just doesnt belong anymore to the elite of chess

Seeley wrote on 03/31/13 at 23:28:35:

Kramnik and Carlsen give the impression of being a notch above everyone else in playing strength at the moment, not just in this tournament but in general [...]

Memory is short... 5 rounds ago, before the epic collapse of a certain Armenian, most of us would have spoken of the 3 best players, not just 2. At that point Kramnik looked like he was giving up too many draws to have any chance of qualifying (and in the end that may still be his downfall).

Seeley wrote on 03/31/13 at 23:28:35:
Stigma wrote on 03/31/13 at 21:50:32:
Number of wins is as good as anything; it rewards ambitious, spectator-friendly play.

This is true up to a point, though it does presuppose that this 'ambitious, spectator-friendly play' is successful and results in a win. Kramnik's bold sacrificial attack as white against Ivanchuk yielded only half a point, but it was surely as ambitious and spectator-friendly as anyone could ask for. Furthermore, as someone pointed out in the live commentary from the venue, another way of expressing the tie-break method being used is that, in the case of players finishing level on points, the winner is declared to be the one who has lost the greatest number of games. This perhaps makes it sound less satisfactory.

You can cite many ambitious tries that didn't result in wins, but it's obvious that statistically, an "ambitious" strategy is comparatively more likely to score 1 win and 1 loss and a "solid" strategy comparatively more likely to score 2 draws in any two given games. So if a player can choose a continuation that increases his chance of winning and his chance of losing by about the same percentage, game theory dictates that he should take that risk when number of wins is the first tiebreaker, other things being equal. (tournament situation, strategy against certain opponents etc. can sometimes override this.) 

Unpredictable results and a low drawing rate (read: drama!) is just what sponsors and a large portion of the audience want - so the tiebreaker does its job.
  

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Seeley
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #7 - 03/31/13 at 23:28:35
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Stigma wrote on 03/31/13 at 21:50:32:
Number of wins is as good as anything; it rewards ambitious, spectator-friendly play.

This is true up to a point, though it does presuppose that this 'ambitious, spectator-friendly play' is successful and results in a win. Kramnik's bold sacrificial attack as white against Ivanchuk yielded only half a point, but it was surely as ambitious and spectator-friendly as anyone could ask for. Furthermore, as someone pointed out in the live commentary from the venue, another way of expressing the tie-break method being used is that, in the case of players finishing level on points, the winner is declared to be the one who has lost the greatest number of games. This perhaps makes it sound less satisfactory.

LostTactic wrote on 03/31/13 at 22:31:43:
Personally I want Kramnik to win, he should have beaten both Aronian and Grischuk and be the tournament winner by now, but instead he has the chance of being robbed in the last round by tie breaks. Carlsen will get many more chances to become world champion, whereas I don't know how many more cycles Kramnik has in him. Ideally I'd like Kramnik to win and beat Anand later this year, and then Carlsen to be his challenger, Kramnik-Carlsen in a World Championship match is what Chess deserves.

I agree with all of this. Kramnik and Carlsen give the impression of being a notch above everyone else in playing strength at the moment, not just in this tournament but in general, and I have a feeling that, once Kramnik's powers start to wane, we will be in for quite a long period of in which Carlsen is pre-eminent. It would be great to see a Kramnik-Carlsen match before that time comes.
  
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battleangel
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #6 - 03/31/13 at 22:54:45
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In a way you are right, carlsen and kramnika are the 2 best players in the world, anand just doesnt belong anymore to the elite of chess

LostTactic wrote on 03/31/13 at 22:31:43:
Personally I want Kramnik to win, he should have beaten both Aronian and Grischuk and be the tournament winner by now, but instead he has the chance of being robbed in the last round by tie breaks. Carlsen will get many more chances to become world champion, whereas I don't know how many more cycles Kramnik has in him. Ideally I'd like Kramnik to win and beat Anand later this year, and then Carlsen to be his challenger, Kramnik-Carlsen in a World Championship match is what Chess deserves.

  
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LostTactic
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #5 - 03/31/13 at 22:31:43
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Personally I want Kramnik to win, he should have beaten both Aronian and Grischuk and be the tournament winner by now, but instead he has the chance of being robbed in the last round by tie breaks. Carlsen will get many more chances to become world champion, whereas I don't know how many more cycles Kramnik has in him. Ideally I'd like Kramnik to win and beat Anand later this year, and then Carlsen to be his challenger, Kramnik-Carlsen in a World Championship match is what Chess deserves.
  
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #4 - 03/31/13 at 22:00:59
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I completely agree with Scarblac and Stigma, and I also disagree that we will be likely to see an anti-climax tomorrow. Kramnik has to play for a win at all costs, and as long as Kramnik is playing, Carlsen will also have to play on. I think it will be a very exciting finish, and I look forward to watching it.
  
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #3 - 03/31/13 at 21:50:32
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The use of tiebreaks is one of the advantages of the tournament format over the match format, so of course they're using it.

Extra tiebreak games in rapid or even blitz or armageddon is a bit silly actually - if you can't find a winner the solution is to test the players at a whole different sport?! I even prefer declaring joint winners to that, though it's not an option in a candidates tournament of course.

If you wanted to know whether Kramnik or Carlsen (say) was better at head-to-head rapid matches, you would organize a rapid match between them, not randomly tack a rapid match on at the end of what is otherwise a longplay tournament where beating the weaker players counts for a lot.

There's nothing unfair about mathematical tiebreaks given that they're known in advance. Of course there are exceptions, like many uses of TPR (Tournament Performance Rating), but that's not an option anyway in a round-robin tournament. Number of wins is as good as anything; it rewards ambitious, spectator-friendly play.
  

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GeneM
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Re: Mathematical tie-breaker damages the excitement
Reply #2 - 03/31/13 at 20:51:27
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Scarblac wrote on 03/31/13 at 20:47:16:
I disagree.
...
It won't be over until it's over. But then, it should be over Smiley


It ain't over until it ain't tied (in plain points).

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