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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18:Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS) (Read 28809 times)
MNb
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Re: C18:Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #6 - 05/17/13 at 21:10:05
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Plyo wrote on 05/17/13 at 19:08:31:
I find it more beneficial.
That's your full right of course, but note that since Steinitz every single WCh disagreed with you. None of them was interested in your (meta-)theoretical approach; they were just interested in strong moves. I play the French myself as Black (and plan to play t...Qc7 next time in corr. chess) but don't feel I benefited anything from your posts.
  

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Re: Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #5 - 05/17/13 at 19:08:31
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/17/13 at 16:10:43:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 10.Ne2! has been the main line for some time now, and black struggles. 7.Qg4 is not refuted, and this is common knowledge (white's key line was already mentioned in Watson's 3rd Play the French installment).


I was hoping for more information than this.
The idea was to transfer the theory of the approach from the theoretician to the thematic player... black struggles? This is chess, black always struggles but when compared to other lines in this line black has pre-made, thematic cures.
I've been playing the French (almost exclusively) for the last 12 years and I still haven't been defeated in TC longer than swiss in this line.


MNb wrote on 05/17/13 at 17:09:33:
Quote:
White's 7.Qg4 is dubious and can be "refuted" by means of theory.

Theory is good, practice is better.
You didn't consider 14.Bxa6 (more or less prevents Nb8-c6-a5) and the quite recent idea to play Bc8-d7-e8-g6.


Agreed, maybe I will but the idea was to talk about the problematic queen move by looking at the PS as opposed to calculating line after line after line till you find the "one best move" you'd never find in a real game anyway.
I find it more beneficial.


dom wrote on 05/17/13 at 18:10:55:
BPaulsen wrote on 05/17/13 at 16:10:43:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 10.Ne2!


I had recorded same point of view many years ago: 
A) after 9...Ne7! White has three main moves 10.c3, 10.Bd2 and 10.Ne2
B) 10.c3 oo (or 10...b6 with lines I never seen excepted the year I was granted chesspub member) 11.Ne2!? (other lines...are given by Watson in one of his numerous books) Nc6! (11..Ng6 Schmidt-Techner,Allemagne 1951) 12.h4 or 12.Nf4 +=
C) 10.Ne2 is often same as B)
D) 10.Bd2 the "old" main line.Black plays with ideas given above: trading light color bishops for some advantage on c-file and White has Nf4 attacking e6 hindering more counterplay. Eg: 10....oo 11.Bd3 b6 12.Ne2 Ba6 13.Nf4 Qd7 14.Bxa6 Nxa6 15.Qd3 Nc7 16.oo +=

All in all, most modern is 8.Qh5+ ...one more thread needed Smiley


I have Watson's book.
I have a collection of 32 books on the French but as I explained above the idea was to look at the structure in accordance to the plan(s).

In the future I plan to write about the structure of the exchanged line, specifically where black plays ...Bd6 | ...Ne7 and ...c6. I have played this line almost exclusively the past 12 years (about 50% of my French games are in the ex line!) and putting aside Blitz and Standard on-line games at 4am I haven't lost a single game in the ex line in my life and despite people's opinions of its alleged equality black wins more than white!
But yeah, I'll finish writing it in a few weeks or months... work keeps us busy Smiley
  
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Re: Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #4 - 05/17/13 at 18:10:55
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/17/13 at 16:10:43:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 10.Ne2!


I had recorded same point of view many years ago: 
A) after 9...Ne7! White has three main moves 10.c3, 10.Bd2 and 10.Ne2
B) 10.c3 oo (or 10...b6 with lines I never seen excepted the year I was granted chesspub member) 11.Ne2!? (other lines...are given by Watson in one of his numerous books) Nc6! (11..Ng6 Schmidt-Techner,Allemagne 1951) 12.h4 or 12.Nf4 +=
C) 10.Ne2 is often same as B)
D) 10.Bd2 the "old" main line.Black plays with ideas given above: trading light color bishops for some advantage on c-file and White has Nf4 attacking e6 hindering more counterplay. Eg: 10....oo 11.Bd3 b6 12.Ne2 Ba6 13.Nf4 Qd7 14.Bxa6 Nxa6 15.Qd3 Nc7 16.oo +=

All in all, most modern is 8.Qh5+ ...one more thread needed Smiley
  

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Re: Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #3 - 05/17/13 at 17:09:33
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Quote:
White's 7.Qg4 is dubious and can be "refuted" by means of theory.

Theory is good, practice is better.
You didn't consider 14.Bxa6 (more or less prevents Nb8-c6-a5) and the quite recent idea to play Bc8-d7-e8-g6.
  

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Re: Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #2 - 05/17/13 at 16:10:43
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qg3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Ne7 10.Ne2! has been the main line for some time now, and black struggles. 7.Qg4 is not refuted, and this is common knowledge (white's key line was already mentioned in Watson's 3rd Play the French installment).
  

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Re: Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
Reply #1 - 05/17/13 at 15:32:30
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A recap of white’s ideas and theoretical possibilities:
  • White played 7.Qg4 which allowed black to play a successful 7...f5 and gain tempo on the queen.
  • White then played the queen to g3 with the intention of pressuring the g-file but as demonstrated and proven, such pressure is of little realistic value.
  • White had further space on the queenside but did not deploy his pieces accordingly.
  • White played h4-h5 but suffered a cramped position once black answered with ...h6.
  • White spent 2 tempi getting the queen to g3 but future plans of breaking black’s f5-pawn with a g2-g4 leaver or bringing the rook over by means of h4/Rh3-g3 require white to move the queen yet again.
  • If white were to redeploy to the queenside or move the queen to allow for the mentioned breaks it’ll cost white 1-3 tempi (of queen moves) which means that as a whole white either spent or will spend 2-6 tempi on maneuvering his queen around. That is roughly half a pawn to two pawns worth of time! if it weren’t for the blocked centre, white would be completely lost!
  • At the final diagram (diagram 3.0) white got to play all the logical moves and black has successfully countered all of them, bringing the game to a strategic standoff. 


Summary:
We have discussed white’s ideas and how black can thematically, strategically and efficiently parry all of them!
Closer inspection reveals the finer point to be made here - black’s ideas cannot be stopped by white. If we understand the underlying message here we understand that although black did not “refute” white’s 7.Qg4 by means of a winning tactical variation it is nonetheless a refutation by means of theory!   
White’s entire approach of 7.Qg4 is dubious, unsuccessful, structurally questionable, time inefficient and strategically incapable of providing white with anything substantial. If anything, black’s game is fairly thematic, simple and easily remembered and understood. in addition to that, black often has the upper hand in the endgame!


Should the Pawn Structure be the only consideration?

The answer to that is - of course not!

I would say that immediate tactics would take first priority. If there are no immediate tactics, then the strategic plan would probably be next. If a strategic plan wasn't apparent, then it might be a good time to consider the pawn structure. This is of course not guaranteed to produce a good move, but it's a reasonable approach to an unfamiliar position.

Let's ask the right questions then...

Q1) Did white have an immediate tactic to justify his play?
Q2) Did white's play follow a sound strategic plan?
Q3) Did white play according to his space occupation and with regard to his Pawn Structure?
Q4) Did white's approach allowed for tactical options?

Answers...

A1) No. Since the queen does not have a realistic or immediate threat against the g7-pawn and since it is black who gained tempo on the queen by 7...f5 white's 7.Qg4 does not fit the first consideration.
A2) No and yes, while white's plan is not "best" it is not losing either but since neither the first nor third considerations were properly planned the second consideration isn't justifiable either.
A3) No. If anything, white played with either complete disregard or at opposite ends of his space advantage. That is not to say that the moving of the queen was or is always bad if it is not where space is at its utmost but it is nonetheless not with accordance of the third consideration. 
A4) Allegedly, yes, white has threats and some are tactical and can lead to an advantageous attack. Nonetheless black's counter-play could neither be stopped or slowed down and its success is of at least equal measures. Therefore, the fourth consideration is to be questioned too. 


Conclusions:

Simple and solid - White's 7.Qg4 is dubious and can be "refuted" by means of theory. 






As a side note, I would also like to lightly talk about the advanced line.


The first structure we'll examine is taken from the advanced variation:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3.e5 c5

Now, omitting all pieces:

Diagram 4.0
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Assuming this was an endgame position and assuming that the kings were at the starting place (e1 & e8). If it is white to move he wins by:

1. dxc5! Kd7 2. b4 Kc6 3. a4 b6 4. cxb6 Kxb6 5. g4

Therefore, when looking at Diagram 4.0 we can appreciate that if it were black to play (which in a real game, he is!) he must take care of the c5-pawn or capture on d4 first.

Assuming the same position only with white having played c3 and the bishops on board:

Diagram 5.0
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

1. dxc5 Bxc5 2. Ke2 Kd7 3. Be3 Kc6 4. a4 a5 5. f4 Bxe3 6. Kxe3 Kc5

The existence of the bishops made all the difference in the world, even if it were white who is to play!

With knights on the board, the game is slightly more complicated but it does bring to light the key-squares of the endgame!

Diagram 6.0
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

1. f4 (1. dxc5 Nxe5 2. b4 Nd3+ 3. Ke2 Nf4+ 4. Kf3 e5 5.g3 Nh3 6. Nd2 Ke7 7. a4 f5 8. Kg2 Ng5 9. Nf3 Nf7 10. h4 Kf6 11. Kf1 Nd8 12. Ke2 h6 13. h5 Ne6) 1... b5 2. Na3 a6 3. Nc2 h5 4. dxc5 Nxc5 5. Kd2 Kd7 6. Nd4 f6

Although this knight position was completely theoretical (due to the placement of the knights in relation to the root line) but it is important when looking at it from the Pawn Structure side.

Getting back to a real position:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3

As trivial as it may seem we can now appreciate that the reason black can afford to play 4...Nc6 is because of his dark square bishop defending the c5-pawn.
Ok, that is indeed trivial but the underlying message, as seen in both the bishop and knight end-games is that it is not beneficial for white's endgame to capture the c5-pawn and that small fact is important.
On the other hand, it is beneficial for black's endgame to try and enforce it upon white!
Therefore, the game continues with:

4... Nc6

It is important to notice here that the rarely played plan of 4... Qb6 with the idea of ...Bd7-b5 (to exchange off the problematic bishop) is a valid option!

5. Nf3 Qb6

Adding more pressure against the d4-pawn.


Thoughts:
Black's "game" as it were, in the French Structure is thematic and principled. It is not without problems (namely, lines where black "had" to play both ...c5xd4 and ...f6xe5 and is therefore left with three pawn islands), nonetheless, it is extremely solid, productive and allows for deep counter play of both positional and tactical nature.
Understanding this structure is beneficial, interesting and surprisingly enough not well covered by theory!
It is my opinion that it is one of the best replies to 1. e4 and demands full respect and appreciation. 



« Last Edit: 05/18/13 at 19:33:38 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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C18:Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?! (PS)
05/17/13 at 15:26:11
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Theoretical refutation of 6...Qc7 7.Qg4?!
&
A different approach to understanding the French Pawn Structure

 
 
To fully understand why 7.Qg4 is to be questioned we must first re-evaluate the imbalances of the French structure.
 
We start by examining the Pawn Structure (PS) of the following line:
 
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3

Diagram 1.0 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
 
And now without the pieces (black to move):

Diagram 2.0 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
 
Examination of the Pawn Structure and Space:

     
  • a-file: white has a pawn on the third rank and 2 ranks of space | Black has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space.
  • b-file: white has 6 ranks of space | Black has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space.
  • c-file: white has pawns on the second and third ranks and 1 rank of space | Black has a pawn on the fourth rank and 3 ranks of space.
  • d-file: white has a pawn on the fourth rank and 3 ranks of space | Black has a pawn on the fourth rank and 3 ranks of space.
  • e-file: white has a pawn on the fifth rank and 4 ranks of space | Black has a pawn on the third rank and 2 ranks of space.
  • f-file: white has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space | Black has a pawn on the fourth rank and 3 ranks of space.
  • g-file: white has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space | Black has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space.
  • h-file: white has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space | Black has a pawn on the second rank and 1 rank of space.

 
Summary of space: white appears to have 27 squares of rank-space to black’s 23.
Notwithstanding, if black captures ...cxd4 he will gain two more rank squares on the c-file and cost white one of his existing ones thus bringing it to 26 for white and 25 for black.

Structural integrity factors: at the current position (diagram 2.0) black has but one pawn island (even after the capture ...cxd4 black will have a solid two pawn islands) whereas white’s Pawn Structure is at a disadvantage. White has two technical pawn islands but the a-pawn is isolated, the c-pawns (c2 & c3) are doubled (and weak) and certain concessions still await white if he is ever to advance the kingside pawns. Ergo, practically speaking white is at a serious disadvantage which is being held together by the closed centre.

The Centre: White appears to have meaningful activity along the b-file and together with the plan of a3-a4-a5-xb6, white should, in theory, have sufficient play. However, closer examination reveals that due to the locked centre white has nowhere but the b-file to exercise his space. An important question is whether black can inhibit white’s plans on the queenside. We will examine this in a short while.

Further inspection of the positional elements and strategic planning of the above Pawn Structure:
 
White:
All the points that are addressed below are to be considered from the white side only!
  • Half open b-file
  • h2-h4, in order to prevent or break ...g7-g5 (with a plausible Rh1-h3-g3).
  • g2-g4, in order to capture (or if black captures, to create further space along the g-file which may help white with a king-side attack) the black f5-pawn and create (once black re-captures with the e6-pawn) a passed e-pawn.
  • Assuming black plays ...b7-b6, white's principled approach is to play a3-a4-a5-xb6 to break the queen-side and create further space.
  • Possibly, depending on black's play, to sustain an outpost (usually suited for a knight) on the d4-square by means of capturing on c5 or re-capturing on d4 with a piece.
  • Possibly to have a rook (or the existing queen) on the d3-h3 half free rank and to further support the "dead-square" f4, the c3-square/pawn and any pawn advances (h- & g-pawns).


Black:
All the points that are addressed below are to be considered from the black side only!
  • ...g7-g5, in order to achieve a pawn duo and gain further space on the kingside.
  • Black should weigh the differences between keeping the tension in the center, or playing ...cxd4 (which will give black 2 more squares of rank space and a target pawn on the c2-square) or playing ...c4 which will limit white’s LSB to a small box and will close the game. 
  • ...b6 | ...Ba6 | ...Nc6-a5 - this will render white’s a3-a4-a5-xb6 plan completely useless and will activate the LSB. It’s important to note here that if black can achieve this plan successfully it means that white’s half open b-file is more or less irrelevant due to the locked centre. in addition, the French pawn chain locks the LSB inside, thus rendering its play passive (though it does help in defending against white’s thematic f-pawn push) which is why black often opts to exchanging it off by either ...Bd7-b5 or as seen here by ...b6 | ...Ba6.
  • If white plays h2-h4-h5 black simply blocks the h-file with ...h7-h6

  
What does the Pawn Structure dictates:
Pieces (and play) must be directed where one’s side has more space.
One should create threats where the opponent’s structure suffers from a disadvantage.
Depending on where tension still exists the side who is to-move will usually have an edge.


A principled continuation (book line) of the main-line discussed above:

[Root line: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3]
 
8... cxd4

After reviewing all the points above it is clear that the most challenging line for white is the immediate capture.
white wasn’t given the time to play Nf3, therefore, white doesn’t have the time to re-capture on d4 with a piece.
By playing 8...cxd4 black (as mentioned in ‘summary of space’) has obtained further space, secured a target (the c2-pawn and the weak c3-square) and as will be seen in a few moves, rendered white’s main threat of Qg3xg7 completely irrelevant!
The reader should take note here! for if white cannot play Qxg7 (which means that black isn’t forced to play ...g6 before he plays ...Ne7) then the entire approach of playing Qd1-g4 is dubious at best if not a complete waste of time! 

9. cxd4 Ne7 10. Bd2

This “passive” looking move is the only move that makes any sense for white. Playing Ne2 will be even worse and playing c2-c3 will not make the c3-square any less weak.
At this point it is important to understand that 10. Qxg7 is completely losing!
If white plays 10. Qxg7 black plays 10...Qc3+ with a completely winning position. if then 11.Ke2 black follows with 11...Rg8 and regardless of white’s next move black will capture the rook on a1.
So now that we’ve learned that white cannot play Qg3xg7 I would like to redirect the reader back to the small segment on ‘What does the Pawn Structure dictates’.
If the Pawn Structure emphasises placing the pieces according to one’s space advantage then white should have posted his pieces on the b-file (remember that the centre is blocked), we must therefore ask an important question:
If the white queen cannot capture Qg3xg7, what business does it have being on the g-file instead of the b-file?
We will examine its validity as the line progresses.
(!) Please notice that this is a "theoretical question" and not a question that can be answered by this or that variation. 
 
10... O-O 11. Bd3

White protects the c-pawn and is placing the bishops where they may find prospect in a future king side attack.

11... b6

As have been discussed, black starts the plan of ...b6 | … Ba6 | … Nc6-a5.

12. Ne2

The idea is simple, adding momentary protection to c3 but more importantly, following the knight-path of: Ne2-f4 and attacking black’s e6-pawn. Worse will be 12. Nf3 where 12... Ba6 13. Nf5 blocks the queen’s gaze along the g-file and a future (thematic) ...h6 will kick the knight off whereas on the f4-square black will have harder time removing the attacker. 

12... Ba6 13. Nf4 Qd7

Black’s queen is slightly overworked now but white has no real way of continuing this “attack”. 

14. h4

White is following with the idea of a king side attack. this also prevents black from preparing ...g5. White’s strategic idea is that once black plays ...h6, he will have a hole on g6.
Practically and analytically, no way has been found for white to take advantage of that hole and in some endgame lines the h-pawn is actually a weakness.
Therefore, 14. h4, while needs to be studied, is of no real danger to black and is doubled edged for white.
In addition, we can now see that white’s kingside is rather cramped and if he is to add further pieces he will have to move the queen again.

14... Bxd3

Exchanging off the strategically challenged bishop for white’s potentially more dangerous bishop.

15. cxd3

No reason to switch game-plans now by removing the queen from the attack and keeping a weak pawn on the c-file by playing Qxd3. However, the opening of the c-file benefits both sides!

15... Nbc6 16. Be3 Na5 17. h5 h6

Diagram 3.0
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

A recap of countermeasures by black:
  • Black played 8...cxd4 in order to gain more space, secure a weakness (white’s c-pawn) and render Qg3xg7 utterly immaterial.
  • Black castled and played ...b6 and following the plan of inhibiting the queenside and exchanging off the locked LSB, black continued with ...Ba6 and ...Nc6-a5.
  • Black met h4-h5 with ...h6, locking the h-file. 


The article continue in the second post below!

« Last Edit: 05/18/13 at 19:32:55 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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