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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert (Read 75572 times)
proustiskeen
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #29 - 10/01/13 at 18:52:07
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For what it's worth, I liked the book.

http://chessbookreviews.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/nessie-and-the-tromp/
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #28 - 08/19/13 at 15:53:45
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alyechin wrote on 08/01/13 at 18:36:30:
Flashman wrote on 08/01/13 at 15:34:28:
I'm too! Very very disappointed Sad !
I found a lot of mistakes and flaws in almost every line!


I don't believe you, because you didn't give any example!


How do you explain this review?

Quote:
Fehler in der Form, dass Pert die Leser seines Buches ins partieliche Verderben führt, habe ich nicht erkennen können und ein solches Ergebnis haben auch nicht die vom Kollegen aufgeführten Varianten.
"Playing the Trompowsky" ist unter den vorgenannten Aspekten ein Buch wie jedes andere. Wie immer sollte der Leser die Möglichkeit auf dem Schirm haben, dass der Autor auch mal irrt. Pert ist Autor und damit so wenig unfehlbar wie jeder andere auch.


http://www.bdf-fernschachbund.de/service/rezensionen/2013/rezens2013.htm#Playing...
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #27 - 08/08/13 at 22:22:14
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Flashman wrote on 08/08/13 at 21:14:00:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?



Interesting idea Flashman!  Smiley But maybe black could play  the move : ...Rd8 one move earlier to avoid this?

I dunno yet

Ben 
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #26 - 08/08/13 at 21:47:12
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Flashman wrote on 08/08/13 at 21:14:00:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?


It certainly looks like a better way to stir up trouble to me.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #25 - 08/08/13 at 21:14:00
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TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.


I think that 11.a3 is better than just 11.0-0 with the idea of b4 (white gets interesting position after that!):
11.a3: if just developing than: e6 12.0-0 Be7 13.d5 Rd8 14.b4 Qb6 15. d6 and seems to me that white is more than ok!
11.a3 Rd8 12.b4! Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Nxb4 14.0-0 Nc6 15.Nb5 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Rxd4 17.Rad1 Qd5 18.RxR QxR 19.Rd1 Qa4 20. Qd2 we come to an interesting position- I think that white will regain the pawn(b7) and will get practical advantage. what is your opinion?
  
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Benoniac
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #24 - 08/08/13 at 19:27:39
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Fllg wrote on 08/08/13 at 18:08:34:
TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 


I find this chapter to be one of the less convincing parts of the book and think Black is fine here against everything Pert suggests.

The reason why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 isn´t covered is probably the line 5...dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5! as given by Aveskulov in "Attack with Black". That seems to offer Black an easy game without much trouble.


I agree with you that this is probably the less convincing ( and inspiring!) chapter in the book. I haven`t read all that  much in all of the chapters, but still. However, I dont think that Aveskulovs variation from "Attack with black" is the reason why he excluded any variations. Why? Its not even in  the bibliography  Wink. And consequently  Pert doesnt even mention the move 9...Qb6 in this variation.  

TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
Haven't posted here for awhile, but I do check the forum regularly. I play the line under consideration for black and think that he's ok after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.
 


He doesent mention 11...Rd8 either ( thx TopNotch). Only 11...0-0-0. But you indicate this is a novelty, so we may forgive him....?  Its my Houdinis top move though, so I wonder...

In the introduction to this chaper he says that he has: 

" chosen to look deeply at just one line involving 3.e3 followed by a plan of Bd3 and Bxe4, as I feel happy about White`s chances of gaining an advantage in these positions and it seem to me to be the best line".

Well, like I said,  I cant help but agree with Fllg on this chapter. And its a pity since the other  chapters seems both inspiring and a lot of fun.  

But maybe the bottom line is that the Trompovsky isnt more than a suprise weapon? One thing seems clear; if a Tromp player starts to meet TopNochs  line in every game, then he 
soon will stop playing 2.Bg5. 

Just my opinion  Smiley. 

Ben   
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #23 - 08/08/13 at 18:08:34
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TopNotch wrote on 08/08/13 at 16:24:50:
I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 


I find this chapter to be one of the less convincing parts of the book and think Black is fine here against everything Pert suggests.

The reason why 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 isn´t covered is probably the line 5...dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5! as given by Aveskulov in "Attack with Black". That seems to offer Black an easy game without much trouble.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #22 - 08/08/13 at 16:37:23
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MartinC wrote on 08/08/13 at 08:20:00:
I would be very, very careful of computers here. They're notorious for not realising the problems with trapped pieces like that knight on b2. You'd need to check quite carefully by hand to be absolutely sure that white can't keep it trapped - he can of course potentially afford to ditch quite a bit of material in order to do so.


That's just it, it appears White can keep it trapped and eventually win it at the cost of the c4 (necessary to trap the knight) and b3 pawns and presumably it's never quite enough to claim equality.  White's idea of h4 and Rh3 being key to his success.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #21 - 08/08/13 at 16:24:50
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Haven't posted here for awhile, but I do check the forum regularly. I play the line under consideration for black and think that he's ok after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 (5...Nf6!? is more combative and the choice of Avrukh in Grandmaster Repertoire 11, GM Eric Prie also has important analysis of this line following 6.dxc5 7.Nc6 Bb5 and concludes black is fine) 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qa5!? 10.h3 Bh5 11.0-0 Rd8N looks roughly equal to me.

I am curious to what Pert has found to make this line dangerous for Black, and also why he did not offer the interesting 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 as a sharp second option, although admittedly with careful play black is fine there too.

Tops Smiley 
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #20 - 08/08/13 at 08:28:04
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Glenn Snow wrote on 08/07/13 at 23:09:31:
In this particular variation, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 g6 9.Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 Ne5 11.Nxe4 Nc4 12.b3 Bf5 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 Nb2, Houdini on my puter gives, 15.Qe1 Qxd5 (15...Qxe1 16.Rxe1 Bxe4 17.Nxe4 0-0 18.d6!) 16.Nd6+ Kf8 17.Ndxf5 gxf5 18.Nh5 Rg8 19.Nxg7 Rxg7 20.Rg1 Rc8 21.Qe5 Qxe5 22.Bxe5 Rxc2 23.Bxg7+ Kxg7 24.g3 as being plus over equals.

I thought that Ben means 12.N5g3!
Here, after 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 I wanted to play Bxf5 15.Nxf5 Nb6- but I see that white can sacrifice an exchange with 16.c4! with a strong initiative!
So you right! the line I gave with 8...g6 isn't good!

To compensate, I think that  Aveskulov  line is not threatening to white:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.Nbc3 Qb6 10.0-0 (look best as he mention) Rd8 11.d5 e6!? (his marks) he thinks that the position is unclear, but after 12.h3 -Black has some problems! if 12...Bxe2 (lost his Bishop pair!) than 13.Qxe2 exd5 14.Rad1 Qc5 (Houdini move) 15. Qd2 and white will regain the pawn with little but stable edge!
If 12...Bh5 so 13.Qd2 .... Ng3 ... Rad1 (and d6) with a good play and if 12... Bf5 13.Be3! Qa5 (Qxb2 14.a3!) 14.Nd4 Nxd4 15.Qxd4 f6 (to free his Bishop) 16.Rad1 looks better for white...
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #19 - 08/08/13 at 08:20:00
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I would be very, very careful of computers here. They're notorious for not realising the problems with trapped pieces like that knight on b2. You'd need to check quite carefully by hand to be absolutely sure that white can't keep it trapped - he can of course potentially afford to ditch quite a bit of material in order to do so.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #18 - 08/07/13 at 23:09:31
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In this particular variation, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4 Nc6 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Ne2 g6 9.Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 Ne5 11.Nxe4 Nc4 12.b3 Bf5 13.N2g3 Qa5 14.Kf1 Nb2, Houdini on my puter gives, 15.Qe1 Qxd5 (15...Qxe1 16.Rxe1 Bxe4 17.Nxe4 0-0 18.d6!) 16.Nd6+ Kf8 17.Ndxf5 gxf5 18.Nh5 Rg8 19.Nxg7 Rxg7 20.Rg1 Rc8 21.Qe5 Qxe5 22.Bxe5 Rxc2 23.Bxg7+ Kxg7 24.g3 as being plus over equals.
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #17 - 08/07/13 at 21:34:32
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In the final position that you mentioned, after 14.Kf1 Nb2 followed by  Queen's exchanges and Bxc2 and black looks better!

I dont get this. Do we talk about the same position?

Here is what I meant:

[/pgn]
To me without engines, it seemed like a very unnatural move indeed. But I know, concrete analysis  Smiley 

I just dont get how black forces the exchange of queens and take the pawn on c2.  Even with enigines, now that im back at home...

Best
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #16 - 08/07/13 at 14:28:40
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Benoniac wrote on 08/05/13 at 22:48:39:
Flashman wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:54:40:
Ok I will bring two examples (1- is a main line which I play against as black and the 2 is a sideline- but I want to show a phenomenon  that return over and over):

1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 (I play this line as black and against this he give just one recommendation) 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4! (his exclamation mark- he prefer this move over Bxe4) Nc6 7.Bxe4 (he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!) dxe4 8.Ne2 (he shows why 8.d5 doesn't work) and now he give 2 moves: 8...e5 as a mistake and 8...Bg4 as the main line, but 8...g6! seem to give black very good game for example: 9.d5 (9. Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 transpose because 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 seems fine for black) Bg7! 10.Nbc3 (10.dxc6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxb2... ) Ne5 11.0-0 (11.Nxe4 Nc4 looks fine) f5 with the plan h6 and than casteling if black can, and I think that just black can be better in the long run (and he even doesn't mention g6!)

2) Sideline: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 and beside the four moves he give for black, he give as a sideline 4...g6 and than : 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.Bxe4 dxe4 7.Nc3 f5?! (my marks- why not c5?) now he give 8. f3?! (my marks) and now instead of c5 for black he give just exf3?! Nxf3 and continue in showing the game until move 14 and than he claims for white advantage.
that phenomenon that he just showing a game without any analayse of the sidelines is all over the book and is annoying!

So, I can bring much more analyse for my bad fortune Sad (I'm little more than 2200 elo and I plays against GM's So If I found a lot of mistakes so easily so how can I use It against a GM?!)


I  agree with you on 7...c5 in the 2) sideline. Partly because it "must" have been played in tournament pratice before, and partly cause a ...c5 it must be very thematic  in Tromp, and against a f2-f3  over all   ( Veresov for example). 

But. An author cannot cover everything. And although I think  this "8...g6!"  move of yours is very interesting, my guess is that  its a novelty and therefore can be easy to miss under certain circumstances. But you say "over and over"; is it really that bad I wonder?
 
BTW, and Im without engine power here on holiday. But this variation with: 
9.d5  Ne5 11..Nxe4 Nc4 where you think black looks fine... I cant help but feeling that 12.b3!? may be the way to go for white. It might follow: 12...Bf5 13.Neg3-Qa5+ 14.Kf1. Unclear to me, for sure. And im missing my Houdini... Smiley

All the best
Ben

You right Ben, I checked and 8... g6 is a novelty. 
In the final position that you mentioned, after 14.Kf1 Nb2 followed by  Queen's exchanges and Bxc2 and black looks better!
I watched Quality's Blog and someone mention that he doesn't mention Aveskulov Line, I checked and he is right! Aveskulov recommends 8...Qb6 (In a different move order but after Qb6 Nbc3 we come to the same position).
Overall I think that the book isn't a serious work and I'm very dissapointed!
  
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Re: Playing the Trompowsky by Richard Pert
Reply #15 - 08/05/13 at 22:48:39
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Flashman wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:54:40:
Ok I will bring two examples (1- is a main line which I play against as black and the 2 is a sideline- but I want to show a phenomenon  that return over and over):

1) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 (I play this line as black and against this he give just one recommendation) 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 cxd4 6.exd4! (his exclamation mark- he prefer this move over Bxe4) Nc6 7.Bxe4 (he mention 7.Ne2!? as a move to consider but he doesn't analyse this move further but Bf5 and black seem to be with no problem see Vitiugov-Karjakin 2010!) dxe4 8.Ne2 (he shows why 8.d5 doesn't work) and now he give 2 moves: 8...e5 as a mistake and 8...Bg4 as the main line, but 8...g6! seem to give black very good game for example: 9.d5 (9. Nbc3 Bg7 10.d5 transpose because 10.Nxe4 Nxd4 seems fine for black) Bg7! 10.Nbc3 (10.dxc6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxb2... ) Ne5 11.0-0 (11.Nxe4 Nc4 looks fine) f5 with the plan h6 and than casteling if black can, and I think that just black can be better in the long run (and he even doesn't mention g6!)

2) Sideline: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 and beside the four moves he give for black, he give as a sideline 4...g6 and than : 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.Bxe4 dxe4 7.Nc3 f5?! (my marks- why not c5?) now he give 8. f3?! (my marks) and now instead of c5 for black he give just exf3?! Nxf3 and continue in showing the game until move 14 and than he claims for white advantage.
that phenomenon that he just showing a game without any analayse of the sidelines is all over the book and is annoying!

So, I can bring much more analyse for my bad fortune Sad (I'm little more than 2200 elo and I plays against GM's So If I found a lot of mistakes so easily so how can I use It against a GM?!)


I  agree with you on 7...c5 in the 2) sideline. Partly because it "must" have been played in tournament pratice before, and partly cause a ...c5 it must be very thematic  in Tromp, and against a f2-f3  over all   ( Veresov for example). 

But. An author cannot cover everything. And although I think  this "8...g6!"  move of yours is very interesting, my guess is that  its a novelty and therefore can be easy to miss under certain circumstances. But you say "over and over"; is it really that bad I wonder?
 
BTW, and Im without engine power here on holiday. But this variation with: 
9.d5  Ne5 11..Nxe4 Nc4 where you think black looks fine... I cant help but feeling that 12.b3!? may be the way to go for white. It might follow: 12...Bf5 13.Neg3-Qa5+ 14.Kf1. Unclear to me, for sure. And im missing my Houdini... Smiley

All the best
Ben
  
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