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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White? (Read 17329 times)
sloughter
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #11 - 12/27/13 at 15:03:28
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Hadron wrote on 12/25/13 at 23:20:26:
Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?

No.


The critical line appears to be 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4! Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Be7! 16.Be2 Nh4 17.Rd1 Nf3+ 18.Bxf3 Bxf3 19.Rd3 Ba8 20.Nc3 Kc8 21.b3 Rb6 22.Rg3 g6 23.Bg5 (Bf4 Rd8 24.Rd1 f6 25.d5 fxe5 26.Bxe5 Bb4! 27.Re3 Rd7 28.Bg3 Bxc3 29.Rxc3 Bxd5 30.Rxc7+ Rxc7 31.Bxc7 Kxc7 32.Rxd5 Ra6 & we have one of the many theoretically drawn Rook pawn endings) f6! 24.Bxf6 Bxf6 25.exf6 Rxf6 & without the pawn duo in the center Black holds the ending easily.
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #10 - 12/25/13 at 23:20:26
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?

No.
  
I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #9 - 12/21/13 at 14:19:44
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sloughter wrote on 12/21/13 at 14:05:02:
Programmers of Deep Fritz 14 have two major flaws


Honestly, I thought it was you that had a major flaw in your computer set-up.
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #8 - 12/21/13 at 14:05:02
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sloughter wrote on 06/16/13 at 14:37:34:
Here is a test of one of the key main lines of the TKD, the Fritz [Played Against Houdini 3 at 300'40 game in 1] (Against the 5...Na5 variation, White is better after: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3, 8...Qc7, 8...h6, 8...Bb7, and 8...cxb5; however, after 8...Be7 and 8...Rb8, it is equal.)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5ch Kd8 10.O-O Rb8 [the usual try here is Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 12.dxe5! Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4! +/-]  11.Bc6 exd4 12.d3 Qf5 13.Re1 Bd6 14.Nd2 Rb6 15.Bxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc4 

Now White prevents Black from getting the Bishop pair which can be used to provoke weaknesses on the Kingside; White is better. Ra6 17.Nxd6 cxd6? Houdini spent over 10 minutes on this move. 

18.Qe2 Bd7 19.Qe7ch Kc8 20.Qh4 Re8 (White should not have been able to simplify so easily; clearly Black's practical play up to here must be improved. What Houdini doesn't realize is that I have the draw “in hand” and can now try to find the win.) 21.Rxe8 Bxe8 22.b3 

Rc6 23.Bb2 Rc2 24.Bxd4 g5! (Houdini earns its nickname; it sees that a Rook on the seventh is worth a pawn and just simplifies into a BOC ending) 25.Qe4 Qxe4 26.dxe4 

Draw offer declined---Kb7 27.Rd1! The simplest pathway to a draw. Rxa2 28.Bf6 Ra3 29.Bxg5 Rxb3 30.Be7 Bb5? (The start of a dubious plan) 31.Bxd6 (Draw offer declined) Rd3? (What Houdini doesn't realize is that it's passed pawn is the wrong color while my potentially passed h-pawn is the right color; Houdini obviously (?) knows how to draw this---it is getting out to Depth = 33) 32.Rxd3 Bxd3 33.f3 Kc6 34.Be7 Kb5? (Playing for the loss) 35.Kf2 a5

36.g4 (Houdini's evaluation suddenly shot to +1.45; then it saw it had to return to the Kingside and dropped the evaluation to +1.00) Kc6 37.Ke3 Bc2 38.h4 Kd7 39.Ba3 a4 40.g5 (+1.58) Ke6 41.Bf8 Bd1 42.h5 f6 43.g6 hxg6 44.h6 a3 45.Bxa3 Kf7 46.Bb2 Bb3 47.h7 Kg7 48.h8Q+ Kxh8 49.Bxf6+ 1/2-1/2


Programmers of Deep Fritz 14 have two major flaws in their opening book in the Two Knights' Defense. First of all when Black plays the Fritz, Deep Fritz 14 always plays the Berliner Gambit, and, in its first move out of "book" agrees the position is +-.

In the main line it chooses a slightly inferior middlegame leaving White with all the winning chances and no losing chances.

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.O-O h6?! (correct is g6 =) 11.Ne4 Nd5 12.Qd1!? f5 13.Nec3 Qc7 14.Re1! Nf6?! 15.h3 Bc5 16.Bf1 Ne4 17.Nxe4! (Rxe4? Bxf2+ =) fxe4 18.Re3 Qf7 19.Qe1 Nc4 20.Bxc4+ Qxc4 21.b3 Qf7 22.Ba3 Bxe3 23.Qxe3 & White has the rest of the game to go after all those weak pawns.
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #7 - 10/26/13 at 12:47:42
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sloughter wrote on 10/26/13 at 02:03:40:
White must give up the minor exchange to regain the pawn.

Why? Is this a new article in FIDE laws?


sloughter wrote on 10/26/13 at 02:03:40:
What if 20...Ke8 21.Bxd4 cxd4 22.Nb5 h5 23.Nxd4 Rh6 24.Kf2 Rg6?

Then White hasn't given up the minor exchange but still has the extra pawn.
Black often seems to get the pair of bishops though, which can become strong enough to compensate for the pawn deficit.
Still before concluding that Black has enough compensation you should exhaust all White's options. There are many of them.
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #6 - 10/26/13 at 02:03:40
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MNb wrote on 10/26/13 at 00:21:03:
16.Be2 Nh4 17.f4 Nf5 18.Nc3 because of Nxd4 19.Rd1 c5 20.Be3 and White finishes development and gets the extra pawn back.


White must give up the minor exchange to regain the pawn. There are a lot of drawn endings like BOC or Rook and Knight versus Rook or Rook and Bishop versus Rook. 

What if 20...Ke8 21.Bxd4 cxd4 22.Nb5 h5 23.Nxd4 Rh6 24.Kf2 Rg6?
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #5 - 10/26/13 at 00:21:03
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16.Be2 Nh4 17.f4 Nf5 18.Nc3 because of Nxd4 19.Rd1 c5 20.Be3 and White finishes development and gets the extra pawn back.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #4 - 10/25/13 at 20:40:58
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sloughter wrote on 06/16/13 at 14:37:34:
Here is a test of one of the key main lines of the TKD, the Fritz [Played Against Houdini 3 at 300'40 game in 1] (Against the 5...Na5 variation, White is better after: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3, 8...Qc7, 8...h6, 8...Bb7, and 8...cxb5; however, after 8...Be7 and 8...Rb8, it is equal.)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5ch Kd8 10.O-O Rb8 [the usual try here is Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 12.dxe5! Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4! +/-]  11.Bc6 exd4 12.d3 Qf5 13.Re1 Bd6 14.Nd2 Rb6 15.Bxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc4 

Now White prevents Black from getting the Bishop pair which can be used to provoke weaknesses on the Kingside; White is better. Ra6 17.Nxd6 cxd6? Houdini spent over 10 minutes on this move. 

18.Qe2 Bd7 19.Qe7ch Kc8 20.Qh4 Re8 (White should not have been able to simplify so easily; clearly Black's practical play up to here must be improved. What Houdini doesn't realize is that I have the draw “in hand” and can now try to find the win.) 21.Rxe8 Bxe8 22.b3 

Rc6 23.Bb2 Rc2 24.Bxd4 g5! (Houdini earns its nickname; it sees that a Rook on the seventh is worth a pawn and just simplifies into a BOC ending) 25.Qe4 Qxe4 26.dxe4 

Draw offer declined---Kb7 27.Rd1! The simplest pathway to a draw. Rxa2 28.Bf6 Ra3 29.Bxg5 Rxb3 30.Be7 Bb5? (The start of a dubious plan) 31.Bxd6 (Draw offer declined) Rd3? (What Houdini doesn't realize is that it's passed pawn is the wrong color while my potentially passed h-pawn is the right color; Houdini obviously (?) knows how to draw this---it is getting out to Depth = 33) 32.Rxd3 Bxd3 33.f3 Kc6 34.Be7 Kb5? (Playing for the loss) 35.Kf2 a5

36.g4 (Houdini's evaluation suddenly shot to +1.45; then it saw it had to return to the Kingside and dropped the evaluation to +1.00) Kc6 37.Ke3 Bc2 38.h4 Kd7 39.Ba3 a4 40.g5 (+1.58) Ke6 41.Bf8 Bd1 42.h5 f6 43.g6 hxg6 44.h6 a3 45.Bxa3 Kf7 46.Bb2 Bb3 47.h7 Kg7 48.h8Q+ Kxh8 49.Bxf6+ 1/2-1/2


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 (Ne4 Ne6 =) Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Be7! (Better than Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 +/-) 16.Be2 Nh4 17.f4 (White can give up the minor exchange, but Black's  prospects of securing equality are good. Two endgames that are likely to occur, a BOC ending where Black gives up his dark-squared Bishop for Knight is an easy draw, but if Black swaps down into a Bishop and Rook versus Rook ending is a theoretical draw provided the Black King can get to the “right” corner, but a difficult practical draw)  Nf5 16.Rd1 Rg8! (h5 17.h3 Be3 18.b3 Rb4 19.Bd3 Bd4 20.Bd2 Bxc3 21.Bxc3 Rxf4 [Black chooses to win a pawn instead of the minor exchange, but the White pieces and pawns wind up on good squares] 22.Rd2 Rh6 23.Rc1 +/=) 17.Bg4 Nh6 18.Bh5 g6 19.Be2 g5 20.f5 Nxf5 =
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #3 - 06/16/13 at 22:02:22
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My apologies. I copied and pasted the game without checking to see if all the moves were translated.

The first position sloughter talks about is this one:
  
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Re: C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #2 - 06/16/13 at 21:35:01
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Are you OK, Smyslov_Fan? Surely Qf3 in that position just blunders.

Sloughter is talking about the critical Fritz line

  
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Re: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
Reply #1 - 06/16/13 at 18:05:42
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This is the line Sloughter is talking about in PGN:



This is the corrected diagram. Thanks, Stigma, for pointing out my error!
« Last Edit: 06/16/13 at 22:03:18 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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sloughter
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C58: Fritz: Two Knights' Defense better for White?
06/16/13 at 14:37:34
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Here is a test of one of the key main lines of the TKD, the Fritz [Played Against Houdini 3 at 300'40 game in 1] (Against the 5...Na5 variation, White is better after: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3, 8...Qc7, 8...h6, 8...Bb7, and 8...cxb5; however, after 8...Be7 and 8...Rb8, it is equal.)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5ch Kd8 10.O-O Rb8 [the usual try here is Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 12.dxe5! Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4! +/-]  11.Bc6 exd4 12.d3 Qf5 13.Re1 Bd6 14.Nd2 Rb6 15.Bxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc4 

Now White prevents Black from getting the Bishop pair which can be used to provoke weaknesses on the Kingside; White is better. Ra6 17.Nxd6 cxd6? Houdini spent over 10 minutes on this move. 

18.Qe2 Bd7 19.Qe7ch Kc8 20.Qh4 Re8 (White should not have been able to simplify so easily; clearly Black's practical play up to here must be improved. What Houdini doesn't realize is that I have the draw “in hand” and can now try to find the win.) 21.Rxe8 Bxe8 22.b3 

Rc6 23.Bb2 Rc2 24.Bxd4 g5! (Houdini earns its nickname; it sees that a Rook on the seventh is worth a pawn and just simplifies into a BOC ending) 25.Qe4 Qxe4 26.dxe4 

Draw offer declined---Kb7 27.Rd1! The simplest pathway to a draw. Rxa2 28.Bf6 Ra3 29.Bxg5 Rxb3 30.Be7 Bb5? (The start of a dubious plan) 31.Bxd6 (Draw offer declined) Rd3? (What Houdini doesn't realize is that it's passed pawn is the wrong color while my potentially passed h-pawn is the right color; Houdini obviously (?) knows how to draw this---it is getting out to Depth = 33) 32.Rxd3 Bxd3 33.f3 Kc6 34.Be7 Kb5? (Playing for the loss) 35.Kf2 a5

36.g4 (Houdini's evaluation suddenly shot to +1.45; then it saw it had to return to the Kingside and dropped the evaluation to +1.00) Kc6 37.Ke3 Bc2 38.h4 Kd7 39.Ba3 a4 40.g5 (+1.58) Ke6 41.Bf8 Bd1 42.h5 f6 43.g6 hxg6 44.h6 a3 45.Bxa3 Kf7 46.Bb2 Bb3 47.h7 Kg7 48.h8Q+ Kxh8 49.Bxf6+ 1/2-1/2
« Last Edit: 06/16/13 at 18:05:57 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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