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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3? (Read 41499 times)
Marc Benford
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #10 - 07/19/13 at 02:40:38
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Thank you all for your answers.

I think that against the Slav I'll go with 3. Nf3 in order to avoid the Winawer Counter-gambit (3. Nc3 e5), and because black will be less inclined to take early on c4.

And against 2... e6, I just discovered the Exchange Variation (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5), and I like it.
Plus white scores tremendously well with it. Taken from an opening explorer : white won 49.3% of the time, black won 19.4% of the time, and 31.3% of the time it was a draw. If we compare that with for example the stats of 1. e4 : white won 39.2% of the time, black won 32.6% of the time, and 28.2% of the time it was a draw. The difference is just astounding.
So I'll definitely answer 2... e6 with 3. Nc3.


I just have three more questions!


Firstly, what is the difference between playing 3. Nf3 and 3. e3 in the Queen's Gambit Accepted (1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4) ? 

I've already made some searchs :
3. Nf3 is three times more popular than 3. e3.
But, 3. e3 scores much better for white than 3. Nf3 :
- With 3. Nf3, white won 38.5% of the time, black won 24.2% of the time, and 37.3% of the time it was a draw.
- With 3. e3, white won 41.9% of the time, black won 21.9% of the time, and 36.3% of the time it was a draw.

And from what I've seen, it looks like 3. e3 allows black to play 3... e5, while 3. Nf3 allows black to play 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bg4. No idea which of these two moves I should fear more though.
And I'm not sure if 3. e3 or 3. Nf3 allow white to avoid other things that I didn't see..


Now for the second question : In the Exchange Variation of the QGD, what is the difference in the move order between e3, Bd3, and Qc2 ?
Sometimes it's e3, then Bd3, then Qc2. Sometimes it's Qc2, then e3, then Bd3. And sometimes it's e3, then Qc2, then Bd3. The three of them are going to be played anyways, but for some unknown reasons white seems to generally score better by playing Qc2 first...


And, the third question : With white, is it possible to play the Exchange Variation of the QGD all of the time? This without allowing black's light squared bishop to go to f5, since I want my light squared bishop to go to d3.
And if it's not possible, how can we play it the most frequently as possible?

Because after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 (Semi-Slav) I don't see how we can transpose to the Exchange Variation.
If 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 black will play 5... Bf5.
If 4. Nf3 I can only pray black won't play 4... dxc4. And even if he plays 4... Nf6, he will easily be able to put his light squared bishop on f5 because Qc2 (trying to prevent the direct ... Bf5) can be answered by ... g6 and then ... Bf5.

While, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 (Charousek Variation), I have a book where the author wants to play 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 (white scores well in this variation too, though not as much as in the Exchange Variation with the bishop on g5). But I wanted to find a combination of moves which would lead white to the Exchange Variation. I searched for hours for something beginning with 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 or 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Qc2, but didn't find anything.
But, after persevering, I believe I finally found the answer : 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bg5 O-O 6. cxd5 exd5 7. e3. (and black can't play 7... Bf5? because of 8. Qb3) And I have the Exchange Variation.
According to an opening explorer, 4... Nf6 will (almost) always be played by black. While at the 5th move, black can also try 5... h6 but after 6. Bh4 black will then always play 6... 0-0 followed by 7. cxd5 exd5 8. e3, and black can also play 5... Nbd7 but then I have no problem achieving the Exchange Variation.
6... Nxd5 is one of the two only move that could prevent the Exchange Variation from happening but it's not that powerful and is only played 14% of the time, the second move is 5... c6 but it is only played 4% of the time.


Again, thanks in advance for your answers.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #9 - 07/18/13 at 19:50:33
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Another advantage of 2.Nf3: many times after 2.Nf3 my opponents will suppose that I am trying to play a d-pawn special like the Torre Atteack, and they will pull out a special line for that--only to realize on 3.c4 that they are now in a main line opening they don't know.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #8 - 07/18/13 at 19:24:39
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3.Nf3 also avoids the Hennig-Schara gambit, or whatever it's called.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #7 - 07/18/13 at 18:33:13
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Overall, if you want to ensure a quieter game you should play Nf3, but if you don't mind allowing Black sharp variations if he chooses, you can get some additional very nice strong options (like the exchange variation) by playing Nc3. I'll try to explain this and the above posts a little more concretely.

After 1. d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Black can force a very sharp tactical game with ...c6, planning dxc5 and a later ...b5 with a huge flotilla of mobile pawns on the queenside in exchange for center control and/or allowing a shattered kingside. There are many such systems, Semi-Slav and otherwise--the Meran, the anti-Moscow, the Botvinnik, the Noteboom--but they are all fairly hair-raising. White can avoid such lines after 3.Nc3  only by giving Black theoretical equality or with the equally sharp Marshall Gambit.

If you play 2.Nf3 and 3.c4, you can have a relatively quiet life without worrying about the above and about systems that give Black early harassing activity and disrupt White's development. No Benko, no Budapest, no Albin, no Schara gambit, no violent Semi-Slav. True, there are a few sharp lines with ...Bb4 that Black can play to meet 3.Nf3, including the Vienna and the Ragozin; but these are not as wild as the ...c6 and ...b5 systems.

On the other hand, with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 (inviting Black into the QGD with 3..d5) you get, as White, to hit Black with very sharp attacking lines in the Benoni (the Taimanov variation) and in the Nimzo-Indian-Queen's Indian complex (the open Saemisch), and by playing an early Nf3 you give these up. You also get to play an effective exchange variation, which you give up after an early Nf3, because with this tempo used for the development of the King's knight, Black has time to solve his major opening problem--how to get the light-squared bishop out. He does this with ...c6 followed by ...Bf5 (or, if White tries to prevent this with Qc2, then Black plays...g6 and ...Bf5 anyway next move). After 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5, on the other hand, Black has no time for this. If he tries ...Bf5 he either winds up with shattered kingside pawns after Bxf6, or dropping a pawn or two tempos after Qb3.

Personally, I play 2.Nf3 to impose my will on  opponents who intend a disruptive opening. If they try to force a sharp game against me with an early ...c5 they can wind up cramped on the wrong side of a Maroczy Bind Sicilian.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #6 - 07/18/13 at 18:08:35
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Oh, and one more thing: also against the QGD, it depends on how you want to reply to the triangle. Just like against 2...c6, 3.Nc3 allows you to play the Marshall, while 3.Nf3 gives you more options if the game continues 3...c6 4.e3 Nf6.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #5 - 07/18/13 at 18:03:53
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whatteaux wrote on 07/18/13 at 13:38:50:
Dan Heisman covered the Slav/Nc3 question briefly in one of his Novice Nook columns at ChessCafe.com. Look for the column called "The Most Common Opening Inaccuracies" (March 2006), which can be found here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#Novice%20Nook


Well, that's a very brief coverage, and it doesn't mention any advantage of playing Nc3. I think TN's post sums it up quite well. I would like to add that 3.Nf3/4.e3 gives White more options than 3.Nc3/4.e3 if Black wants to play a Meran with 4...e6.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #4 - 07/18/13 at 13:38:50
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Dan Heisman covered the Slav/Nc3 question briefly in one of his Novice Nook columns at ChessCafe.com. Look for the column called "The Most Common Opening Inaccuracies" (March 2006), which can be found here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#Novice%20Nook
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #3 - 07/18/13 at 02:44:37
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QGD: Play 3.Nf3 if you want to play the Catalan, and 3.Nc3 if you want to play the Exchange.

Slav: Play 3.Nc3 if you want to avoid the Main Line Slav (4...dxc4) or want to be able to play the Marshall Gambit, and 3.Nf3 if you want to avoid 3.Nc3 dxc4, the Glasgow Kiss Variation or want to play the Slow Slav. 

There are some other specifics (there's also 3.e3 and 3.cxd5 against the Slav) but these are the basic advantages and disadvantages.
  

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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #2 - 07/17/13 at 23:13:26
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and of course if white wants to play the Catalan he has to go 3.Nf3
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #1 - 07/17/13 at 22:43:25
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White often delays Nf3 to keep the option of Ng1-e2 which is thought to be promising for White.  White keeps the option of moving the f-pawn f2-f3 preparing e3-e4 with a big pawn center.  For that reason a lot of players will first go Nc3, e3, and even Bd3 before committing the king's knight.

On the other hand, Nb1-d2 is perfectly OK, but it is not thought to be as challenging as knight to c3 at high levels of chess.  White has already gotten the c-pawn out, so the knight on c3 will not block the c-pawn, and there really isn't any drawback to Nc3, so why not just play it immediately and see what black does.

That's probably why Nc3 is more popular.

One merit of an early Nf3 is that it rules out any early e7-e5 by Black.  This e7-e5 strike is common in very ambitious counterattacking systems for Black that are not fully trusted at the highest levels of chess.  For example: Budapest gambit, Albin countergambit, Winawer countergambit, and Chigorin defense.  (You can search those names for yourself to get the moves.)  Another merit of Nf3 is against weak play you can go Nf3-e5, f2-f4, Qf3-h3, etc. and get a simple huge attack.  Harry Pillsbury used to crush everyone this way (in the 1890s).

All in all, both Nc3 and Nf3 are good solid moves.  Either one is fine.  Nc3 gives white (and also Black) somewhat more options, but Nf3 is perfectly good and avoids some of Black's offbeat possibilities.  So, just play whichever one seems intuitively better for you.  If you are a "safety-first" guy, I'd lean in favor of Nf3; if you are more ambitious go with Nc3.  But ultimately it doesn't really matter at all.
  

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Marc Benford
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QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
07/17/13 at 22:26:07
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Hello.

I was just wondering, in the Queen's Gambit Declined, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 (or 2... c6), what is the difference between playing 3. Nc3 and 3. Nf3 ?

I looked in an opening database/explorer :
- After 2... e6, 3. Nc3 is 3 times more popular than 3. Nf3, but 3. Nf3 scores better for white (+43.6% -22.4% for 3. Nf3, versus +42.6% -26.1% for 3. Nc3).
- After 2... c6, 3. Nf3 is 1.5 times more popular than 3. Nc3, and 3. Nf3 also scores better for white (+40.9% -22.5% for 3. Nf3, versus +41.2% -26.3% for 3. Nc3).

Is there really a big difference? Isn't white just going to play both Nf3 and Nc3 anyways?
Which of those two moves do you recommend me to play first? Should I play 3. Nf3 just because it scores better than 3. Nc3 ?
Do each of those two moves allow white to avoid specific variations? If yes, what are those variations?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
  
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