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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3? (Read 41482 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #25 - 09/08/13 at 04:39:45
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gwnn wrote on 07/19/13 at 06:43:23:
In Andreas von Schyndel's d4 repertoire book (derdudea I think on these forums) he gives 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. Qc2!?/?! (the author's evaluation), where you usually can reach normal exchange positioms, but Black has a narrow path avoiding it and getting relatively easy equality. Sorry, I don't remember exactly how.


I think 4...c5 is probably good enough although I haven't researched it deeply.   

Another question along the same lines is:  What's the key differences in the move orders 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 and 4.Nc3?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #24 - 07/20/13 at 17:07:30
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Incidentally it isn't quite true that White always plays Qc2 in the Exchange.  Here's a recent case I came across (albeit with a great rating difference and with Black apparently at sea early on) in which White ended up with his Q and B the other way round.

  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #23 - 07/20/13 at 13:45:32
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And Fine was to be U.S. Open champion the following year; twenty years later, Reinfeld was still 6th best player in the U.S. at age 40.  So for the OP, your correction of my early-Qc2-hits-c8 as a Fred-threat would be 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Bd6?! 7.e3 (now there is a threat) h6? (missing it) 8.Bxf6 Qxf6? (8...gxf5 was the lesser evil) 9.Nxd5 cxd5?? (better 9...Qf5) 10.Qxc8+.
« Last Edit: 07/20/13 at 15:58:20 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #22 - 07/19/13 at 23:25:14
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Ah yes, I remember that game and the horrendous ...Qc7.  (Apparently the game was played when Fine was about 17; Petrosian produced ...Ne4 when he was about 20, in a USSR championship.)
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #21 - 07/19/13 at 22:26:31
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Fred Reinfeld--my hero. Here he is, beating Reuben Fine while playing...wait for it...Qc2 before Bd3 with a QGD exchange pawn structure. 

Removing the guard of f7, so that 25. Qxb7, which is coming next, will create multiple threats, attacking f7 and the queenside.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #20 - 07/19/13 at 20:27:25
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Not exactly subtle would be to add e3 and ...h6 to the ...Bd6 version.  I can just imagine that appearing in a Reinfeld book or something.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #19 - 07/19/13 at 20:08:10
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Yes, thanks, that's true--since Black doesn't have to play 9...cxd5??, 6.Qc2 should not be called a threat, although I still think the OP should know that part of its function is to set up that tactical theme in case its execution should prove feasible. In the Petrosian game Ne5?? is a more subtle mistake than my 9..cxd5?? and illustrates the theme much better.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #18 - 07/19/13 at 19:15:15
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But in that first line Black escapes with  ...Qxd4.

I am often reminded of a young Petrosian falling into 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd ed 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Be7 7. e3 Ne4 8. Bxe7 Qxe7 9. Nxd5.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #17 - 07/19/13 at 18:36:45
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Qc2 before Bd3 is also sometimes useful after an early ...c6,  because of a tactic you should be aware of. After 1.d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 (threatening 6.Bxf6 and if 6...Qxf6, 7. Nxd5) 6...c6 (protecting the d-pawn against that threat), 7.Qc2 renews the threat in a veiled form: for example, 7...Bd6? (missing it) 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Nxd5 cxd5 10.Qxc8+!

Another tactical idea related to the Qc2's control of the c-file, with the bishop on f4, is seen in a line like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 (all normal moves up to here--now some plausible amateur moves to set up the idea) 8...a6 9.a3 h6 10.Bf4 Nh5 (trying to win the bishop pair) 11.Nxd5! cxd5?? 11.Bc7! "stinging" the smothered Black queen. Black has to give up a piece with ...Bb4 to make an escape square for the queen.

It's probably better to memorize the idea of common threats like this related to Qc2 than to memorize when to play ...Qc2. You never know when you can use them.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #16 - 07/19/13 at 16:43:59
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Keano wrote on 07/19/13 at 07:58:07:
The exchange variation is the big difference imo. 3.Nc3 is a better (arguably the only way) to enter it.


I would agree here. Probably that's because I'm playing the QGD via the classical move order (1...d5 2...e6 3...Nf6). Then 3. Nf3 or 3. Nc3 makes a huge difference and Nc3 is way more flexible in that case ...
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #15 - 07/19/13 at 08:10:45
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Note that if you want to avoid the Noteboom you need to play something after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nf3 e6 other than 4 Nc3 (when dxc4 leads to the Noteboom). This could be 4 e3 but that allows 4 .. f5 with a favourable Stonewall or 4 Qc2 which will lead to some sort of Orthodox QGD-like structure probably. So one advantage of playing the same move vs. both 2 .. e6 and 2 .. c6 is that you only need to learn one "anti-Noteboom" line (if Nc3 then the Marshall gambit and if Nf3 then 4 Qc2), in case you're afraid of the two connected passed pawns.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #14 - 07/19/13 at 07:58:07
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Marc Benford wrote on 07/17/13 at 22:26:07:
Hello.

I was just wondering, in the Queen's Gambit Declined, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 (or 2... c6), what is the difference between playing 3. Nc3 and 3. Nf3 ?

I looked in an opening database/explorer :
- After 2... e6, 3. Nc3 is 3 times more popular than 3. Nf3, but 3. Nf3 scores better for white (+43.6% -22.4% for 3. Nf3, versus +42.6% -26.1% for 3. Nc3).
- After 2... c6, 3. Nf3 is 1.5 times more popular than 3. Nc3, and 3. Nf3 also scores better for white (+40.9% -22.5% for 3. Nf3, versus +41.2% -26.3% for 3. Nc3).

Is there really a big difference? Isn't white just going to play both Nf3 and Nc3 anyways?
Which of those two moves do you recommend me to play first? Should I play 3. Nf3 just because it scores better than 3. Nc3 ?
Do each of those two moves allow white to avoid specific variations? If yes, what are those variations?

Thanks in advance for your answers.


The exchange variation is the big difference imo. 3.Nc3 is a better (arguably the only way) to enter it.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #13 - 07/19/13 at 06:43:23
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In Andreas von Schyndel's d4 repertoire book (derdudea I think on these forums) he gives 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. Qc2!?/?! (the author's evaluation), where you usually can reach normal exchange positioms, but Black has a narrow path avoiding it and getting relatively easy equality. Sorry, I don't remember exactly how.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #12 - 07/19/13 at 04:27:58
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Question 1:

3.Nf3 against the QGA allows 3...Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 and 3...a6 (which is very solid as Aronian-Svidler, Candidates 2013 demonstrated), while 3.e3 allows 3...e5 (leading to an almost equal IQP position). Of course against both moves Black can play the main line with 3...Nf6 and 4...e6 so most of the time both move orders will lead to the same position.

Question 2: 

If Black plays the main line Carlsbad (the name of this pawn structure) the move order doesn't make much difference, but after 5...c6, 6.e3 allows the Short endgame of 6...Bf5 7.Qf3 Bg6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 gxf6 (which is remarkably robust) and 6.Qc2 allows 6...Na6 (which is tricky but better for White, as in Svidler-Harikrishna, Bundesliga 2012/13) and 6...Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 (solid but slightly better for White, as played in Kasparov-Anderssen). Normally I prefer 6.Qc2 but you might 'risk' the Short endgame (as it's mainly geared towards holding the position). 

Question 3:

Unfortunately you can't reach the standard Exchange position all the time, though as you note White can play 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 against 3...Be7. If Black is careless White will end up a tempo ahead of a normal Exchange QGD line (where White plays 10.h3 and 11.Bf4), so Black will usually develop his bishop to f5 quickly or break with ...c5. Against 3...c6 you shouldn't try to reach a QGD Exchange line as 4.cxd5 exd5 is pretty innocuous. Instead 4.Nf3, 4.e3 and 4.e4 are the standard moves - against the first two Black can reach a Semi-Slav with 4...Nf6. 4.Nf3 allows the Noteboom (4...dxc4) but 4.e3 allows a decent Stonewall (4...f5) and 4.e4 is a pawn sacrifice. 

The QGD line you suggest is playable but not a theoretical problem for Black if he plays kylemeister's ...Nxd5 in response. The reason 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 isn't so effective is because White doesn't have a bishop on g5 and can take the centre with 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 (which is still playable for Black, and even a bit trendy at present). 



  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #11 - 07/19/13 at 03:51:27
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Regarding lines like 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 0-0 7. cd or 5...0-0 6. cd, I would expect ...Nxd5 to be the most usual choice of strong players.
  
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