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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3? (Read 41488 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #40 - 02/06/14 at 19:21:41
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lnn2 wrote on 02/06/14 at 15:45:19:
The supposedly big problem with basing a repertoire on 3. Nc3 Exchange is that White needs to be happy with facing the Nimzo.


From White's point of view, that bad thing about the Nimzo is that it is, arguably, Black's most sound defense to 1.d4.  It's really tough to find an edge against it. 

However...the good news is that literally everything under the sun is playable.  If White can just free his mind from some of the "main line" theory that everyone knows and choose something a little lesser-known to specialize in, he can score well.  In the Nimzo Black needs to be prepared to play dozens of different types of structures, move orders, etc., and White can use that to his practical advantage.  I had good results with 4.Nf3 b6 5.Qb3 and the immediate 4.g3, for instance.  When faced with the "Catalan Bogo" (since I play the Catalan now), I often still play 3.g3 Bb4+ 4.Nc3!?.
  
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lnn2
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #39 - 02/06/14 at 15:45:19
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The supposedly big problem with basing a repertoire on 3. Nc3 Exchange is that White needs to be happy with facing the Nimzo. Therefore Kaufman threw in an alternative mini-repertoire based on 3. Nf3 in his book. Somewhat of a half-hearted attempt though.

Having the White side of the Nimzo and both 5. Bf4 and exchange QGD in my repertoire has worked quite well. This combination provides enormous flexibility, e.g. if White forgets the theory of the Cambridge Springs he can go 6. cxd5, and against 3... Be7 White does not have to play the Exchange (which is somewhat different from the usual Carlsbad) but can go for 5.Bf4 lines.
  
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Keano
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #38 - 02/05/14 at 21:23:32
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lnn2 wrote on 02/05/14 at 15:34:00:
3. Nf3! is a great practical choice for me. Two big plusses:

Against the Tarrasch, delaying Nc3 avoids all kinds of ...c4 sidelines. 

Against the Triangle, White has many playable options 4. g3, 4. Qc2, 4. Bg5, 4. Nbd2, all of which lead to "normal" positions unlike noteboom/marshall. 

The disadvantage is to give up the exchange variation but it seems 5. Bf4 is good enough ever since the "Kazan" problem had been overcome:

http://crestbook.com/en/node/1879

Another one is to face the Ragozin/Vienna but it is pleasant to play White there in my view.


It is fine and I always played 3.Nf3 myself, but we come around in a circle and agree that the main advantage of 3.Nc3 is the exchange variation.

You could argue that is the more practical choice as White avoids all Ragozins and Vienna's etc. and the exchange variation itself is dangerous for Black imo.

In the end its a question of taste I think.


  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #37 - 02/05/14 at 15:34:00
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3. Nf3! is a great practical choice for me. Two big plusses:

Against the Tarrasch, delaying Nc3 avoids all kinds of ...c4 sidelines. 

Against the Triangle, White has many playable options 4. g3, 4. Qc2, 4. Bg5, 4. Nbd2, all of which lead to "normal" positions unlike noteboom/marshall. 

The disadvantage is to give up the exchange variation but it seems 5. Bf4 is good enough ever since the "Kazan" problem had been overcome:

http://crestbook.com/en/node/1879

Another one is to face the Ragozin/Vienna but it is pleasant to play White there in my view.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #36 - 02/05/14 at 05:54:55
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RdC wrote on 02/05/14 at 01:59:55:
Keano wrote on 02/04/14 at 12:46:33:
I think its a question of taste which line to prefer or allow.


The Kasparov-Short game quoted earlier in the thread gives reasons for avoiding the Exchange Variation where White doesn't play Nf3. You get flexibility by using the 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 move order. With the Knight on c3, meeting cxd5 with Nxd5 is possible, as demonstrated by Kramnik in the London Candidates. 


True but you quoted Keano who was referring to the merits of 6.e3 and 6.Qc2.
  
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RdC
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #35 - 02/05/14 at 01:59:55
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Keano wrote on 02/04/14 at 12:46:33:
I think its a question of taste which line to prefer or allow.


The Kasparov-Short game quoted earlier in the thread gives reasons for avoiding the Exchange Variation where White doesn't play Nf3. You get flexibility by using the 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 move order. With the Knight on c3, meeting cxd5 with Nxd5 is possible, as demonstrated by Kramnik in the London Candidates. 
  
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Keano
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #34 - 02/04/14 at 12:46:33
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I think its a question of taste which line to prefer or allow. Also in reality the line you are afraid of, whatever its objective merits, will hardly ever be played against you OTB. The Short endgame might be a bit more.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #33 - 02/03/14 at 22:23:16
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Keano wrote on 02/03/14 at 15:35:36:
Glenn Snow wrote on 02/03/14 at 12:06:52:

Because of member PANFR's discovery White may have to allow the Short endgame with 6.e3, see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1331563108/69#69


An interesting idea but a bit too bold to suggest White has to give up playing Qc2 imo. Plenty of ways for White to play against that particular line.



I haven't found anything promising which doesn't mean much but BPaulsen wrote, "White's chances are surprisingly underwhelming.  Allowing the Short endgame looks necessary."   

I'm hoping he's wrong since I'd rather not allow the Short endgame.
  
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Keano
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #32 - 02/03/14 at 15:35:36
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Glenn Snow wrote on 02/03/14 at 12:06:52:

Because of member PANFR's discovery White may have to allow the Short endgame with 6.e3, see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1331563108/69#69


An interesting idea but a bit too bold to suggest White has to give up playing Qc2 imo. Plenty of ways for White to play against that particular line.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #31 - 02/03/14 at 12:06:52
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TN wrote on 07/19/13 at 04:27:58:
Question 1:

3.Nf3 against the QGA allows 3...Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 and 3...a6 (which is very solid as Aronian-Svidler, Candidates 2013 demonstrated), while 3.e3 allows 3...e5 (leading to an almost equal IQP position). Of course against both moves Black can play the main line with 3...Nf6 and 4...e6 so most of the time both move orders will lead to the same position.

Question 2: 

If Black plays the main line Carlsbad (the name of this pawn structure) the move order doesn't make much difference, but after 5...c6, 6.e3 allows the Short endgame of 6...Bf5 7.Qf3 Bg6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 gxf6 (which is remarkably robust) and 6.Qc2 allows 6...Na6 (which is tricky but better for White, as in Svidler-Harikrishna, Bundesliga 2012/13) and 6...Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 (solid but slightly better for White, as played in Kasparov-Anderssen). Normally I prefer 6.Qc2 but you might 'risk' the Short endgame (as it's mainly geared towards holding the position). 

Question 3:

Unfortunately you can't reach the standard Exchange position all the time, though as you note White can play 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 against 3...Be7. If Black is careless White will end up a tempo ahead of a normal Exchange QGD line (where White plays 10.h3 and 11.Bf4), so Black will usually develop his bishop to f5 quickly or break with ...c5. Against 3...c6 you shouldn't try to reach a QGD Exchange line as 4.cxd5 exd5 is pretty innocuous. Instead 4.Nf3, 4.e3 and 4.e4 are the standard moves - against the first two Black can reach a Semi-Slav with 4...Nf6. 4.Nf3 allows the Noteboom (4...dxc4) but 4.e3 allows a decent Stonewall (4...f5) and 4.e4 is a pawn sacrifice. 

The QGD line you suggest is playable but not a theoretical problem for Black if he plays kylemeister's ...Nxd5 in response. The reason 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 isn't so effective is because White doesn't have a bishop on g5 and can take the centre with 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 (which is still playable for Black, and even a bit trendy at present). 





Because of member PANFR's discovery White may have to allow the Short endgame with 6.e3, see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1331563108/69#69
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #30 - 02/02/14 at 14:22:51
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The preceding discussion about when (and whether) to play Qc2, and various Nxd5! tactics, reminded me of this classic game that everyone playing these lines should know:

  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #29 - 02/02/14 at 11:43:52
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gwnn wrote on 07/19/13 at 06:43:23:
In Andreas von Schyndel's d4 repertoire book (derdudea I think on these forums) he gives 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. Qc2!?/?! (the author's evaluation), where you usually can reach normal exchange positioms, but Black has a narrow path avoiding it and getting relatively easy equality. Sorry, I don't remember exactly how.


This approuch is extremely practical since the road to simple equality is 4....Nf6 5.exd5 Nxd5! an for some reason nobody plays it at amateur level (and even not on professional level...)

Other decent black moves that will very rarely occur:

4...Nc6 is second best for black but can imagine anyone playing der QGD with Black to go for Tschigorin-positions in move 4?

4...dxc4 5.e3....same with the QGA...extremely unlikely to be played

Much more likely is:

4...c6 is more likely to be played by Alatortzev players
5.e3 Nf6 6.Nf3 0-0 or Nbd7 is some kind of Anti-Meran with a misplaced Be7, which supposed to be on d6

4....Nf6 5.exd5 exd5 is the exchange Black wanted to avoid an White wants to play (in my repertoire at least)

So, I´m a very lazy guy:  reducing my workload over theoretical truth is my choice. An I´m pretty sure: 90% of your games will be continued with 4....c6 oder 4...Nf6 5.cxd5 exd5
  
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TalJechin
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #28 - 09/09/13 at 09:58:20
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kylemeister wrote on 09/08/13 at 16:04:42:
On 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 c6 there is 5. e3 ...


Yep, that one should be obvious for those who don't like to play against the Semi-Slav. Which may be why it never crossed my mind yesterday...

Anyway, Glenn's question (and many, many more) is answered in Soltis' book Transpo Tricks. It's quite cheap nowadays (I got it for about 5-6 Euros a few years ago) and very useful as a reference.
  
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #27 - 09/08/13 at 16:04:42
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On 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 c6 there is 5. e3 ...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: QGD:What's the difference between 3.Nc3 and 3.Nf3?
Reply #26 - 09/08/13 at 15:52:26
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Glenn Snow wrote on 09/08/13 at 04:39:45:


Another question along the same lines is:  What's the key differences in the move orders 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 and 4.Nc3?


It's probably related to the extra options available after each move, i.e. Nb1-d2 and Bc1-f4. 4.Bg5 signs up for the ML Semi-Slavs, I guess, Nbd2 might come in handy vs the Ragozin and Cambridge Springs. And 4.Nc3 keeps the less volatile option of e3 instead of Bg5 in the Semi-Slav.
  
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