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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Please give us time! (Read 9535 times)
Akilea
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #16 - 12/03/13 at 18:50:53
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Adjudications, on the other hand, are still in force in my local league. The contempt I have for this type of ending cannot be justified by words alone. Apart from anything else, the mere logic of it confuses me - cutting the game short, ensuring that no endgame will ever take place, to let a third party decide he fate of the game. Bafflingly, many of these sessions conclude with one player sitting out a perceived advantage/draw for a period of time, followed by both players then analysing the final position. This time could have been better spent playing a rapid finish endgame. Even if it were low quality, a rapidplay endgame would at least ensure that the game be decided by moves played on the board by both players. Apparently such a concept is not what my local league is all about.

I would never participate in any tournament using this method.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #15 - 09/26/13 at 10:53:16
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winawer77 wrote on 09/25/13 at 05:47:50:
Adjudications, on the other hand, are still in force in my local league. The contempt I have for this type of ending cannot be justified by words alone. Apart from anything else, the mere logic of it confuses me - cutting the game short, ensuring that no endgame will ever take place, to let a third party decide he fate of the game. Bafflingly, many of these sessions conclude with one player sitting out a perceived advantage/draw for a period of time, followed by both players then analysing the final position. This time could have been better spent playing a rapid finish endgame. Even if it were low quality, a rapidplay endgame would at least ensure that the game be decided by moves played on the board by both players. Apparently such a concept is not what my local league is all about.


That's unbelievable, sounds like a bad joke. I guess some people like to feel the sense of power and drama that comes with being the one to decide a game. A slight improvement might be to have it adjudicated by computer, at least it's a little more objective. Houdini might find a ridiculously complex tactic or be at a loss in a certain endgame, but then so could the adjudicator.  
 
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #14 - 09/25/13 at 21:43:47
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TalJechin wrote on 09/22/13 at 16:33:29:

Most games are decided way before the ending or the ending itself is either a trivial win or an easy draw - so the percentage of interesting endings getting ruined is what? 5%? 1%?


I guess it depends quite a lot on your playing style and playing strength, but in my own games, I think we are talking about around 30 %. In my previous (9-game) tournament, 3 of my games featured interesting endings where I would certainly have appreciated more time. Besides, even if a game is not decided in the endgame, it may have been affected by players playing quickly in order to avoid getting into eternal time trouble.

I don't like the idea of getting back to adjournments, but I do prefer long time controls when the tournament schedule allows for it.

In Norway, the time control in the individual championships and the team leagues are now 90 min + 30 sec, plus 30 min after 40 moves. I haven't tried that control myself yet, but it seems much better than just 90 min + 30 sec. It means you have 2,5 hours for 60 moves, and by that time most games (even mine) are decided, while there are still 30 sec increments to help those games that are still interesting.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #13 - 09/25/13 at 08:33:42
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Some years ago, 2 regional tournaments decided to abolish adjournments after some players complained about my intensive computeranalysis made during the adjournments. You can read more about it on my blog: 
http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/05/afbreken.html
  
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winawer77
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #12 - 09/25/13 at 05:47:50
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LeeRoth wrote on 09/21/13 at 16:14:15:
I miss the adjournments.  It was a part of strategy and could be hugely thrilling.  In the days before tablebases and computers, there was often a real question of whether a position could be won or saved.

I find today's time controls annoying.  You spend hours of hard work, reach a complicated ending and then you have no time to think it through.  What's the point of that?  

I agree with the OP.  "Chessplayers need to think; decreasing time is damaging the beautifullness of chess"

 


I absolutely despise adjournments. Perhaps in years gone by it was a valid way of continuing the game, though even then a players success after the continuation would be largely dependent on the resources/players they have access to. Nowadays, it's just a joke - the player with the more powerful computer engine holds the advantage. My local club uses adjournments in its club championship, and it's the main reason I choose not to participate.

Basically, I'm against any form of chess that doesn't complete the game in one session. So if that means a 30 second increment is the way to go, then so be it. Personally, I think it's plenty of time.

Adjudications, on the other hand, are still in force in my local league. The contempt I have for this type of ending cannot be justified by words alone. Apart from anything else, the mere logic of it confuses me - cutting the game short, ensuring that no endgame will ever take place, to let a third party decide he fate of the game. Bafflingly, many of these sessions conclude with one player sitting out a perceived advantage/draw for a period of time, followed by both players then analysing the final position. This time could have been better spent playing a rapid finish endgame. Even if it were low quality, a rapidplay endgame would at least ensure that the game be decided by moves played on the board by both players. Apparently such a concept is not what my local league is all about.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #11 - 09/24/13 at 21:44:52
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The amount of endgames during tournaments is an additional fun aspect, indeed a few percent left is not much, but those boards are all surrounded by a huge crowd of spectators!!

A time control of 90 minutes + 30seconds/move isn't that bad at all, then you have 2 hours for 60 moves. More time increasements/move have other disadvantages, because then a whole group of amateurs could stay away from that tournament, because of the risk that a game lasts too long, there is also a need that players can drive home at a reasonable time. But my mayor concern is that tournament games are slightly reduced from 2 hours to 1:50 to 1:40 etcetera, which is destructive for endgames.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #10 - 09/23/13 at 20:46:19
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The campaign has started. FIDE be very careful, very very careful, because you have botched up our game enough. I saw a quote today about all artists not being chess players, but all chess players are artists. Well under the current regime it is more like all chess players are between a rock and a hard place. Those that respect the game that is. Of course there is a certain breed of professional player that is quite happy with all this, get it over with one way or the other. I even had a certain GM trying to tell me that all this positional stuff weak squares, outposts etc. was all a load of rubbish. He just calculates some moves and keeps an eye on the clock, and if all else fails goes for a few cheapoes. Well who can blame him really with the current regime, its done him OK so far.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #9 - 09/23/13 at 04:40:50
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.
GMTonyKosten wrote on 09/22/13 at 23:34:32:
... 30 seconds [increments] - by the time you've written down the moves and refocused you've lost a good part of that anyway.

I strongly agree.
REfocusing after moving the eyes and attention away from the board, to the score sheet, is very disruptive. 30 seconds is not enough time to then refocus and think clearly.

But the bottom line is that the Tournament Director must have either adjournments (yuk) or a predictable and reasonable time by which all games of the round will be finished.

I think the best solution begins by acknowledging that all chess clocks available for purchase today are crummy in terms of their flexibility. If we have truly programmable chess clocks with granular configurations for all concepts and all implied concepts...

Divide the "fat" first time-control segment into two shorter or *thinner* segments.  Each might be 20_moves/50_minutes + delay_30_seconds.
Further, any time remaining at the end of segment is only partially carried forward to the next segment!  For example, perhaps only 50% of the remaining time is added at the start of the next segment.  Phrased slightly differently, any time remaining at the end of segment results in only a *partial-accumulation* of the prior segment's remaining time.
That way players get the time they need, but they cannot save all unused time and in so doing bloat the maximum duration of the game and thus of the round.


Under these two basic ideas (thinner segments, partial-accumulation of prior time), the players no longer have all the usual *guesswork* about how to manage their limited time.  At the start of the game, neither player has any way of knowing whether the game will last of 33 move-pairs or 99 move-pairs; thus they must guess about how much time to save early in the game.

Very few other sports, either analog or digital sports (like chess), have this element of guesswork about time.
By having thinner segments, none longer than 20 move-pairs, the endgame has time if it needs time.  But if it turns out that the endgame does not need time, then the endgame's time is not available for excessive and perhaps self-destructive consumption by the earlier segments of the time-control.



Mathematically it is impossible to reliably know that the round's longest game will complete within 5 hours if the time-control allots, to each player, on average 3 minutes for every move of a 90 move-pair game (2 * 3 * 90 = 540 minutes = 9 hours).  So we must pick our poison.
The thinner and partial-accumulation principles give us more ways to make the poison as palatable as possible.
. .
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #8 - 09/22/13 at 23:34:32
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TalJechin wrote on 09/22/13 at 16:33:29:

or just increase the increment to 3-5 minutes after 60 moves?

Not a bad idea, even 1 or 2 minute increments would be a big improvement on 30 seconds - by the time you've written down the moves and refocused you've lost a good part of that anyway.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #7 - 09/22/13 at 22:19:37
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I was thinking more of this:

"One cannot help feeling a bit sad realizing that such works of art (and Timman - Velimirovic, Rio de Janiero 1979) are unlikely to be seen in the future due to modern time controls and the lack of adjournments." 

IM Jeremy Silman, reveiwing the book The Greatest Ever Chess Endgames.
 

  
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TalJechin
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #6 - 09/22/13 at 16:33:29
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If "the modern trend to lower time controls is destroying the (end)game", then what reasonable time control would rectify that? 

90min +30sec plus an extra hour after 60 moves (with 30s increment, still) perhaps?

or plus 90min with increment after 60?

or just increase the increment to 3-5 minutes after 60 moves?


Most games are decided way before the ending or the ending itself is either a trivial win or an easy draw - so the percentage of interesting endings getting ruined is what? 5%? 1%?

Instead of lamenting, it would be more interesting to find a reasonable compromise and then try it in local tournaments. If it works well, it may become the new FIDE standard in a few years.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #5 - 09/22/13 at 13:08:24
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Agreed. I was just reading in Winter's Capablanca book: Lasker and Capablanca were negotiating over 12 moves per hour (=40 in 3:20) vs. 15 moves per hour (=40 in 2:40). In the event, Capablanca took more time than Lasker in most of his games. No wonder they could play good endgames. 

Adjournments today would be a bit like adjudications, but that would not favor either player. Not only the Soviets would have a Geller in the room to find ...Rxh2!!. Excellent endgames would return. I suspect the real roadblock is that sponsors (and media) have become reluctant to pay for extra time in the playing venue, etc. But the Amsterdam ACP Golden Classic, with 40 in 2:30 and adjournments, worked fine.
  
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #4 - 09/22/13 at 05:48:15
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No danger of adjournments coming back, but agree the modern trend to lower time controls is destroying the game. When is the last time you saw a decently played endgame in these controls?
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #3 - 09/21/13 at 16:14:15
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I miss the adjournments.  It was a part of strategy and could be hugely thrilling.  In the days before tablebases and computers, there was often a real question of whether a position could be won or saved.

I find today's time controls annoying.  You spend hours of hard work, reach a complicated ending and then you have no time to think it through.  What's the point of that?  

I agree with the OP.  "Chessplayers need to think; decreasing time is damaging the beautifullness of chess"

 
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Please give us time!
Reply #2 - 09/21/13 at 12:41:47
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Whatever about computers damaging chess I say good riddance to the old days of "adjournment". There's no good excuse for not completing a game, and even without computers this might well have happened. A chess game isn't a court case. Really that whole idea of adjournment was just an embarrassment to chess, more about drama than chess. What about the ability for the players to rest instead of continually going over the same position? I doubt the players miss it much.   

As you say, it's then about the rest of the team analyzing together, so it's not 1 vs 1 at all... that's more unfair than the person with the better computer (computer evaluations have to be interpreted, a human may not have the calculating ability to play some scarey-looking computer lines properly). If you want to play team vs team chess then you should have your own rules with team vs team. 
 
  
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