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Poll Question: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 - Which is the most similar to the Caro-Kann?



« Created by: Marc Benford on: 01/13/14 at 00:48:16 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4 (Read 36397 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #6 - 09/23/13 at 16:30:25
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Why hasn't the Queen's Gambit Declined been considered?  It seems to fit all of your criteria, including that you very rarely give up a bishop for a knight.  Mix and match the different variations to suit your taste, and voila!  You're done.
  
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Laramonet
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #5 - 09/23/13 at 10:32:29
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Another recommendation for the a6 Slav and also for Bologan's dvd. In your repertoire listing, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 5.Nc3 a6 is better, as recommended by Bologan.
If you played 1.c4, you'd then be playing my repertoire !
  
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #4 - 09/23/13 at 03:53:50
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Go with the ...a6 Slav. It probably fits your preferences best, and the only way you're ever going to get to play the same exact pawn structure after both 1.d4 and 1.e4 is if you play something hypermodern like 1...g6 or 1...b6. Even the pure Slav structure after ...dxc4 is very different from the Caro-Kann in that White keeps his e-pawn, not his c-pawn, so he has a central pawn majority, which doesn't happen in the CK.
Also, do keep in mind that if you truly like playing closed positions, you shouldn't have such a strong aversion to playing with knights vs. bishops. They frequently favour the former, after all, and if you're afraid to trade a bishop for a knight you'll often miss out on the best way to handle your position.
  
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Marc Benford
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #3 - 09/23/13 at 00:53:06
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VitolinishBoom wrote on 09/21/13 at 22:58:57:
As a 1.d4 & Caro player, I'd recommend the Slav. With the Semi-Slav there's the Botvinnik & Moscow, which might be the kind of craziness you're seeking to avoid.  I feel the same way about the Benoni, but the Semi-Slav has the better reputation.  The Czech Benoni may not be so bad but fianchettoing my knight is odd. Joking aside, I think the positions are too cramped and a good positional player can slowly crush you.

The Slav has some similar pawn structures & themes to the Caro (the Bf5 getting hunted down), but it's also solid. There's a fair bit of theory, but certainly less, I think, than the KID, Grunfeld or Semi-Slav. Good luck with your decision.


The Slav really is tempting me, but the problem is that I don't want to give away my light squared bishop for a white knight, and it seems that in most line it's what's going to happen.

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 I have 4 moves :
- 4 ... e6 : is a Semi-Slav, not a Slav
- 4 ... a6 : looks a little passive and makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn's pawn structure
- 4 ... g6 : not sure I like that move too much, and it also makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn pawn structure
4 ... Bf5 : was the move I initially wanted to play, but it runs in 5. cxd5 cxd5 6. Qb3 and white has an advantage (1-0 62% of the time, 1/2-1/2 25% of the time, 0-1 13% of the time), and then the best move is 6 ... Bc8 which just looks like admitting that 4 ... Bf5 was a mistake, and I would never make a humiliating retreat like that)

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 I have 5 moves :
- 4 ... e6 : which is a Semi-Slav, not a Slav
- 4 ... Bf5 : it's the move I instinctively want to play, but after 5. Nc3 e6 6. Nh4 I loose my bishop, and I can't play 5. Nc3 h6 because of 6. Qb3 leading to doubled isolated pawns for black (and the only thing I hate more than loosing one of my bishops for a knight is to get ridiculous doubled isolated pawns...)
- 4 ... a6 : I have no idea about that move, but it makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn's pawn structure
- 4 ... Bg4 : not sure but it seems that in most variation I'll end up losing my bishop
- 4 ... g6 : again not sure I like that move too much, and it also makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn pawn structure

And finally after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 I have 5 moves :
- 4 ... e6 : which is a Semi-Slav, not a Slav
- 4 ... dxc4 : not sure, but firstly I don't like to give up a center pawn for a c-pawn like that, and after  5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 I'm not sure if my light squared bishop will survive or if it will just get exchanged for a knight
- 4 ... a6 : not sure, but it sometimes makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn's pawn structure
- 4 ... g6 : again not sure I like that move too much, and it also makes black's pawn structure differ from the Caro-Kahn pawn structure
- 4 ... Bf5 : again I would like to play that move but I can't because of  5. cxd5 cxd5 6. Qb3 with a big advantage for white (1-0 73% of the time, 1/2-1/2 17% of the time, 0-1 10% of the time)

So which lines should I play in order to prevent the loose of my light squared bishop without getting a big disadvantage (and if possible also keeping a pawn structure similar to the Caro-Kahn's pawn structure) ?


Keano wrote on 09/22/13 at 05:52:23:
quiet, slow, closed, positional - sounds like you are looking for the Nimzo and 143A3E31305F01.
No, actually I hate the Nimzo because I prefer bishops over knights. But I love playing the white side of a Nimzo.
  
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Keano
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #2 - 09/22/13 at 05:52:23
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quiet, slow, closed, positional - sounds like you are looking for the Nimzo and QID.
  
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VitolinishBoom
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #1 - 09/21/13 at 22:58:57
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As a 1.d4 & Caro player, I'd recommend the Slav. With the Semi-Slav there's the Botvinnik & Moscow, which might be the kind of craziness you're seeking to avoid.  I feel the same way about the Benoni, but the Semi-Slav has the better reputation.  The Czech Benoni may not be so bad but fianchettoing my knight is odd. Joking aside, I think the positions are too cramped and a good positional player can slowly crush you.

The Slav has some similar pawn structures & themes to the Caro (the Bf5 getting hunted down), but it's also solid. There's a fair bit of theory, but certainly less, I think, than the KID, Grunfeld or Semi-Slav. Good luck with your decision.  Smiley
  
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Marc Benford
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Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
09/21/13 at 20:54:16
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Hello.

Since I started playing chess (3 years ago), I played 1. e4 as white, and as black I played the sicilian against 1. e4 and the Benko Gambit against 1. d4.
Three months ago, I changed my opening repertoire radically : I now play 1. d4 as white, and as black I play the Caro-Kann against 1. e4. But I still play the Benko Gambit against 1. d4.

I am now thinking about playing something else against 1. d4 (the Benko Gambit is awesome in blitz, but in correspondence I usually just end up one pawn down with not much compensation).
I want something extremely quiet, slow, closed, positional. It's not because I suck at tactics (it's not the case, I played the sicilian for 3 years, and did more than 5000 tactical puzzles), it's just because I love slow manoeuvring, I want to be able to be perfectly relaxed while playing, and not get into insane positions and stress out knowing that one single inaccuracy can be fatal.

For now I'm hesitating between these 4 openings :
- The Slav
- The Semi-Slav
- A Benoni with ... d6, ... g6, ... Bg7
- The Czech Benoni

The good thing about the Slav and the Semi-Slav is that they seem to share many similarities with the Caro-Kann. Is that true? And if yes, which of these two openings is the most similar to the Caro-Kann?
Also, I heard that as black playing 1... d5 against 1. d4 is a good idea if you play 1. d4 as white yourself (the same thing goes for 1... e5 against 1. e4, if you play 1. e4 as white yourself). Not sure if this is true but it seems logicial.

While the good thing about a Benoni with ... d6 and ... g6 is that it is similar to the Benko Gambit (and I love that kind of pawn structure), except that black is not down a pawn.

And concerning the Czech Benoni, I don't know much about it but I heard that it's very very closed, solid, slow and quiet.

Can you give me your advice on these 4 openings? Which one do you think I should play?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
  
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