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Poll Question: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 - Which is the most similar to the Caro-Kann?



« Created by: Marc Benford on: 01/13/14 at 00:48:16 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4 (Read 36428 times)
Aziridine
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #21 - 01/05/14 at 04:07:46
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1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 h6 8.Qe2 intending 0-0 and e4 is an easy plus for White - despite the unreliability of computers early in the opening, even Houdini understands this.
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 5.Nc3 Nbd7 6.cxd5 cxd5 7.Qb3 is again much better for White. 
Rare moves tend to be rare for a reason. If you don't want to lose the bishop pair, don't play the Slav. Hanging on to it for dear life is going to get you into trouble.
  
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Marc Benford
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #20 - 01/05/14 at 02:34:53
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I passed the last 3 days thinking about what to play against 1.d4, and I'm still pretty lost.

I like the Slav Chameleon/Chebanenko Variation (with ...a6), but the thing is it appears that in lot of variations White get some scary attacking chances, and to weather the storm Black needs very accurate play and a lot of memorization. And even if he does succeed in defending, Black doesn't always get to keep his light squared Bishop (or it gets stuck behind his Pawns). I just don't think it's a good move for a non-GM player.

I've been thinking of playing the Slav Accepted 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. e3 e6 7. Bxc4 and then inserting the move 7... h6!?
That move is only played less than 0.1% of the time, but Houdini said it's good, so it can't be that bad.

But the problem is mostly that I don't know what to do against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 (or 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3)
4... e6 blocks the light squared Bishop and enters a Semi-Slav (I'm not going to memorize BOTH the Slav Accepted and the Semi-Slav)
4... Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6. Nh4 lose the Bishop pair
4... a6 is the Chameleon/Chebanenko (and I'm not going to memorize BOTH the Slav Accepted and the Chameleon)
4... Bg4 lose the Bishop pair
4... g6 I dont like

So I've been thinking about playing 4... Bf5 5. Nc3 Nbd7!? (it's very rarely played, but it's apparently playable) and then try to insert ...h6
And it looks like it permits me to keep the Bishop pair in most variations. And on the few variations were I lose the Bishop pair I inflict White with doubled isolated Pawns or things like that, but it will require a little bit of memorization because the positions can become temporarily slightly sharp (after 6.Qb3 and 6.cxd5).
What do you think about it?
  
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wolfsblut
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #19 - 01/01/14 at 17:30:32
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Marc Benford wrote on 01/01/14 at 16:56:13:
Bump.

It's been 3 months now and I still don't know what opening to choose...
The only thing I'm 99% sure of: I'm going to answer 1. d4 with 1...d5
But then after 2. c4, should I choose the Slav, the Semi-Slav, or the QGD?

From the previous answers, it looks like everyone has their own point of view..
Some suggested to me the main line Slav, but I often end up losing my light squared Bishop for a Knight, or I end up giving my opponent a central pawn majority.
Some suggested the ...a6 Slav, but pushing pawns and forgetting development seems to be a very risky choice (and I have no idea if my light squared Bishop is going to be able to safely get developed to f5 without my opponent being able to exchange it for his Knight).
Some suggested the QGD, but it hasn't much in common with the Caro-Kann, and it blocks my light squared Bishop.

Can some more people share their thoughts on this?
For the record: I'm searching for a quiet, closed, slow and positional opening for Black against 1. d4 d5 2. c4
And I would prefer not to lose my light squared Bishop for a Knight, nor give my opponent a central pawn majority.
And also very important: I want to play something that is as similar as possible to the Caro-Kann (since I play this as Black against 1. e4).

Thanks in advance for your answers Smiley

Hi,
I know that choosing an opening is a very, very difficult task..... Undecided
But it is for me clear that you should play the classic slav:
1. The slav is correct und it will always be playable Smiley
2. Yes, sometimes you have to give your Bishop for the Knight- there should be no problem- you get in return time and a good structure! The same happens also in the Caro-Kann Tongue
3. There will come a very good book about the slav by Avrukh  soon Smiley

Make a point and 

Happy New Year!

wolfsblut
  
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fling
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #18 - 01/01/14 at 17:17:16
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kylemeister wrote on 01/01/14 at 17:12:51:
Okay, I'll say it:  you seem to be looking for the impossible, and a bit obsessed.


Lol, obsessed was something I forgot to mention!

Just play chess, try an opening and see if you like it! If not, try another one :-D
  
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fling
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #17 - 01/01/14 at 17:16:37
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I think your problem lies in your idea of not wanting to give up your light squared bishop for a knight, or to give your opponent a central pawn majority. I.e. you shouldn't worry about the opening, but rather study cases when it is ok for Black to do just those things, or when it is not. The trade of light-squared bishop for a knight when appropriate, is exactly for positional reasons...

You want slow, positional, sound solid not too many tactics. That is the Slav. Sometimes you have to give up your light squared bishop in that defence. But that is still solid. Same goes for the Nimzo. The QGD is pretty solid, but e.g. the exchange can get much more tactical than most of the Slav lines (except maybe the gambit lines, but that goes for most gambits except maybe the Benko and similar things). And it is actually pretty annoying and more dangerous than the exchange Slav, although more exciting as well IMO.

The Czech and Old Benoni probably fall in the same category, but they are considered not as good as the Slav or QGD. But you get solid...
  
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #16 - 01/01/14 at 17:12:51
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Okay, I'll say it:  you seem to be looking for the impossible, and a bit obsessed.
  
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Marc Benford
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #15 - 01/01/14 at 16:56:13
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Bump.

It's been 3 months now and I still don't know what opening to choose...
The only thing I'm 99% sure of: I'm going to answer 1. d4 with 1...d5
But then after 2. c4, should I choose the Slav, the Semi-Slav, or the QGD?

From the previous answers, it looks like everyone has their own point of view..
Some suggested to me the main line Slav, but I often end up losing my light squared Bishop for a Knight, or I end up giving my opponent a central pawn majority.
Some suggested the ...a6 Slav, but pushing pawns and forgetting development seems to be a very risky choice (and I have no idea if my light squared Bishop is going to be able to safely get developed to f5 without my opponent being able to exchange it for his Knight).
Some suggested the QGD, but it hasn't much in common with the Caro-Kann, and it blocks my light squared Bishop.

Can some more people share their thoughts on this?
For the record: I'm searching for a quiet, closed, slow and positional opening for Black against 1. d4 d5 2. c4
And I would prefer not to lose my light squared Bishop for a Knight, nor give my opponent a central pawn majority.
And also very important: I want to play something that is as similar as possible to the Caro-Kann (since I play this as Black against 1. e4).

Thanks in advance for your answers Smiley
  
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Plyo
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #14 - 12/01/13 at 14:29:15
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Marc, I don't agree with what you expressed and the general consensus.
The Slav can become extremely chaotic, tactical, complicated, insane-pawn-structures, etc.
The Semi Slav is a different story all together!
Sure, you have to deal with some annoying lines but that's true for everything!

That said, I don't think either is the right choice!
Following your own desires - slow, positional, sound, solid, not too many tactics:
I'd go with a bullet proof Queen's Gambit Declined, Tartakover Variation.
It has a good score, it's balanced, it's been played for ages by top GMs, you can find many great historical games that will inspire you. It's extremely applicable yet somewhat off beat these days (though Nigel Short still plays it) and it is exactly what you are looking for.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=d58
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #13 - 10/23/13 at 12:52:31
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Look, closed is one thing, positional a second, strategic a third, and quiet a fourth. Having a safe king long-term is a fifth thing (White Catalan yes, French no). These things are logically, though not statistically, independent: they are correlated, but can appear in various combinations.  A closed pawn structure brings freedom from having to looking at many "long moves" and intersecting lines for much of the game, and safety from very early piece attacks on the king. Positional means something like rewarding accurate assessment of end nodes that do not feature gross material advantages. Strategic means rewarding creative multi-step planning. Quiet means easy on the nerves, and perhaps somewhat drawish. The Stonewall Dutch is closed, but is strategically rather monochrome: Black often uses some standard maneuvers and plays for a brutal kingside attack. Botvinnik played it like, well, Botvinnik; but a lot of weak players play it because it can be played formulaically, with little positional, strategic, or tactical thinking--as zombie chess. And I would never describe the Nimzo as quiet in a million years. Strategic, yes.  

Eric's QGD gets my vote, especially since the OP wants to keep his light-square bishop. It's strategically complex like the Nimzo, but easier on the nerves, frequently both quiet and positional, and not stultifying, as the most varied positions arise. And studying it will improve your game, unlike studying the Stonewall.
« Last Edit: 10/23/13 at 15:32:06 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #12 - 10/10/13 at 01:22:42
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Old benoni

- 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 (with a blocked center).

- Stonewall dutch (preferably answering 1.d4 with 1...e6 and playing the Fort Knox french)
- QGD Ortodox variation (Nbd7). But then you have to have something "slow" against the Catalan. Many times it means slow torture for black though Smiley

I cant get it slower than that. 
 
  

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Seth_Xoma
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #11 - 09/27/13 at 02:16:00
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There's always the Old Indian, too.
  
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Keano
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #10 - 09/26/13 at 07:57:18
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/23/13 at 16:30:25:
Why hasn't the Queen's Gambit Declined been considered?  It seems to fit all of your criteria, including that you very rarely give up a bishop for a knight.  Mix and match the different variations to suit your taste, and voila!  You're done.


Good idea also - never a waste of time learning the QGD because the pawn structures will come in handy in all sorts of other openings later.
  
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #9 - 09/25/13 at 20:41:15
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The QGD is a very good idea as well. It's easier to get a QGD than a Slav after 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, you play 1...e6/2...d5 against the former and 1...d5 against the latter.
  
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Marc Benford
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #8 - 09/25/13 at 19:57:30
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Concerning the ... a6 Slav, I kind of like the arising positions, but pushing queenside pawns in the opening like that seems a little risky and it gives white a development advantage. I mean, perhaps GMs can play this, but for an amateur it looks like one single inaccuracy can be lethal.

And as for the QGD, I like it too, but I heard that many Caro-Kahn players tend to go with the Slav instead. And with the Caro-Kahn + Slav combo I can play 1 ... c6 against everything, even against 1. c4 (which is a good bonus, since I never knew what to do against 1. c4 if my opponent doesn't allow me to play the Benko).
  
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Re: Need a quiet, slow, positional opening against 1d4
Reply #7 - 09/23/13 at 17:30:23
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Yes, I had the thought that things are a bit out of kilter when the QGD isn't a candidate for a "quiet, slow, positional" defense, while e.g. a KID/Benoni hybrid is ...
  
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