Poll
Poll closed Question: Who wins?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Anand by +3    
  1 (1.3%)
Anand by +2    
  1 (1.3%)
Anand by +1    
  11 (14.1%)
The Match is Drawn    
  1 (1.3%)
Carlsen by +1    
  25 (32.1%)
Carlsen by +2    
  30 (38.5%)
Carlsen by +3    
  6 (7.7%)
Anand by more than +3    
  0 (0.0%)
Carlsen by more than +3    
  3 (3.8%)




Total votes: 78
« Created by: TalJechin on: 09/24/13 at 08:40:59 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen (Read 126610 times)
lnn2
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #178 - 11/21/13 at 11:48:02
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well how Carlsen dealt with 4. f3 is a real surprise. I've played these positions for ages and 7... ed5 8. e3 c4 always seemed to me like a mistake that someone without knowledge of theory would make, but Carlsen must know what he is doing...   Huh
  
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Keano
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #177 - 11/21/13 at 11:34:25
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22.f5! Well this looks very dodgy for Black to me, Anand will just find a way to go for check-mate?

Then again it is Carlsen defending, but he'll need to defend like an engine.

Carlsen down to 40 mins now and still thinking - he does not look happy!!!!

One thing Carlsen does not have is a poker face - he knows he is in big trouble here.

  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #176 - 11/21/13 at 11:24:11
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IMJohnCox wrote on 11/21/13 at 11:15:36:
In my experience all comps start with Black much better in this structure and drop as play progresses.

I've seen more than one correspondence game where black plays 7...exd5 (Nxd5 just has to be better) and white wins
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #175 - 11/21/13 at 11:15:36
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In my experience all comps start with Black much better in this structure and drop as play progresses. I wouldn’t be surprised if Carlsen was in real trouble here; objectively I’ve no idea but (i) clearly from the clocks he doesn’t know what the best plan is, and (ii) this kind of position is one of Anand’s major strengths. Letting both of those things happen at once feels like crazy match strategy to me.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #174 - 11/21/13 at 11:10:35
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The official online engine was happy with black early on but now seems to have decided to offer a broadly non sensical line with its favourite 0 evaluation attached.
(An utterly implausible Na6/c7 and Ra <-> b1 repitition with white pawns on g5/h5 Smiley)

To be honest I'm not sure quite how powerful the hardware it is on is/how long they're giving it etc. The lines it has been suggest really have looked rather strange at times.
(Even when it was in more computer friendly positions than this in earlier games.).
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #173 - 11/21/13 at 11:07:04
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Very, very strange choice from Magnus. No doubt this is the opening he's prepared, but even then, this system was surely Anand’s most natural choice, and MC doesn’t actually seem to have any terribly relevant prep. It’s hard to think of too many other players who wouldn’t have gone with the QGD in this situation. If Carlsen goes down here he’ll surely have regrets, though I suppose there is the school of thought which says you have fewer regrets if you stay true to yourself, whatever that means.
  
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Keano
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #172 - 11/21/13 at 11:01:08
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I'd be very happy to have White here, but no doubt the engines will say something different. At least White is aiming in the right direction, Anand has got to be happy with this.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #171 - 11/21/13 at 10:40:28
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Perhaps, it just seems a bit obliging to say 'here, have a complete mess'  Smiley
  

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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #170 - 11/21/13 at 10:39:25
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Dink Heckler wrote on 11/21/13 at 10:36:11:
Somewhat odd opening choice for Carlsen, though...you would have thought he'd make it a bit harder for Vishy to stir things up, rather than gift-wrap him a highly unbalanced position.


Maybe he's confident that he can win a third point this way, not sure.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #169 - 11/21/13 at 10:36:11
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Somewhat odd opening choice for Carlsen, though...you would have thought he'd make it a bit harder for Vishy to stir things up, rather than gift-wrap him a highly unbalanced position.
  

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Keano
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #168 - 11/21/13 at 09:55:48
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Predict a decisive result from this position, given the circumstances also. Very double-edged.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #167 - 11/21/13 at 09:50:43
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Well I guess this qualifies as a fun effort Smiley Good to see. 8.. c4 seems a bit earlier than I remember as usual but it appeared instantly so have to presume some ideas behind it.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #166 - 11/20/13 at 20:33:11
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/20/13 at 18:48:02:

I also think that these incredibly strong engines have spoiled chess players to some extent, and we think that the only permissible way to lose a game is to an incredibly deep tactical idea.  One player can only win a game if the other makes a mistake, and sometimes those mistakes come in fairly simple positions due to fatigue, poor technical understanding, whatever.  It's as valid a way for a human to lose as any other, in my opinion.   

Totally agree.


IMJohnCox wrote on 11/20/13 at 17:48:41:
Winning this sort of position is perhaps Carlsen’s biggest strength and losing them one of Anand’s biggest weaknesses. Preparation, psychological and otherwise, to stop it happening ought to have been his top priority before the match. 

Great point--just think of Anand's blown opposite-color bishop endgame against Topalov, who hardly holds Karpovian terrors as an endgame player. But perhaps Anand did prepare this very thing, only to no avail: that would explain his willingness to go into such situations.
« Last Edit: 11/21/13 at 03:41:46 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #165 - 11/20/13 at 18:48:02
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I agree that Anand may not be in the best psychological state for competition, which has happened to all of us at various times.  I take issue with the idea that Carlsen playing everything out to the end is somehow "using psychology" as a weapon against Anand, that's all.

I also think that these incredibly strong engines have spoiled chess players to some extent, and we think that the only permissible way to lose a game is to an incredibly deep tactical idea.  One player can only win a game if the other makes a mistake, and sometimes those mistakes come in fairly simple positions due to fatigue, poor technical understanding, whatever.  It's as valid a way for a human to lose as any other, in my opinion.
  
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Re: WCH 2013 Anand - Carlsen
Reply #164 - 11/20/13 at 17:48:41
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On the question of psychology, Anand lost both game five and game six because he gave up too early. He believed the rook ending with three against one was lost, and played too quickly. If you’d told him there was a draw there and he’d be executed on the spot if he didn’t find it, he’d have played differently, and that’s the performance state he should have been in, to use the jargon. And game six more or less the same; he relaxed too soon and so fell for this trick at all, and once he had he despaired and believed it was over. And the fact Carlsen believed the same thing both times – or so he said in the press conferences – contributed; these things cross the board. Sometimes it’s good to let them, sometimes not. You have to absorb the information, but not let it affect you.

That’s why Anand lost these games, because he wasn’t in the right state to find the right moves. That’s what people mean by psychology. And in my view he wasn’t in the right psychological state before the match; what happened hasn’t been any kind of surprise. Winning this sort of position is perhaps Carlsen’s biggest strength and losing them one of Anand’s biggest weaknesses. Preparation, psychological and otherwise, to stop it happening ought to have been his top priority before the match. And obviously either it hasn’t been, or whatever he’s done didn’t work. As Vlad would say, his preparation was insufficiently intellectual. It comes back to the fact that this match isn’t life and death to Anand, whereas for Carlsen losing is unthinkable. To overcome that difference in motivation, you need a big difference in class. When you don’t have that either, you’re a big underdog.
  
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