Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Play up or play at current level? pros and cons (Read 7915 times)
Fortis
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 40
Joined: 07/28/13
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #16 - 11/21/13 at 21:17:27
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 11/20/13 at 21:22:27:
If you want to improve you should play up 


Now that I think about it, the whole thing may be a moot point. Im pretty sure ill pass 1800 soon enough and then Ill be at the bottom end of the "under 2000" class at any decent size tourney
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 1073
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #15 - 11/21/13 at 16:40:54
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 11/21/13 at 15:43:32:
Bizarre article. Of course players over 2300 can be amateurs. One of my team mates is a 2500 GM and I'm sure his banker employers would be very surprised to be told he was a non-amateur chessplayer.

The writer doesn't deny that players over 2300 can be amateurs. He only states that to find sufficient interesting opponents for + 2300 players , you will have to search between professional chessplayers and as an amateur this is often very difficult to combine with the other occupations.
In fact I wrote a very similar article a few months ago on my blog about this aspect, see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/09/inactiviteit.html

In my club after being for about 20 years inactive, a strong player returned to active chess when he retired from his very demanding profession as he was not interested in playing some low level games in the local club. Beginning of this year he scored his first norm with a + 2600 performance at age 65: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/01/sterke-jan-scoort-een.html but clearly he is an exception.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #14 - 11/21/13 at 16:19:03
Post Tools
Well, probably much more accurate to call it club player rather than ameteur Smiley

There is a point of sorts behind it though. To some extent it depends where you live of course, but with many evening leagues/congresses etc even a ~200/210 (2200ish) ameteur will tend to score slightly too well to fully enjoy things/have enough data to really improve. 

Get notably stronger and it definitely gets difficult. Of course you can move to playing just stuff like the 4NCL, events abroad etc, but then I guess you're no longer quite playing the same sort of chess.

As for improving, the thing you really want to be able to do is play people of a similar strength, maybe some slightly stronger. 

Playing people too much stronger than you just teaches you how relatively bad you are at the game.  Useful to get some perspective at times of course but still Smiley 

Too weak only really helps if you do value learning how to consistently beat weaker players and put in the effort to consistently learn how to do it. It can be a useful skill but probably better to find your level first.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #13 - 11/21/13 at 15:43:32
Post Tools
Bizarre article. Of course players over 2300 can be amateurs. One of my team mates is a 2500 GM and I'm sure his banker employers would be very surprised to be told he was a non-amateur chessplayer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 1073
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #12 - 11/21/13 at 09:35:43
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 11/20/13 at 23:18:21:
If you want to get better at the game, then in my opinion you should always play the strongest opponents you can.

I don't really understand the modern obsession weak players have with winning money, but if that's what you're interested in, then different considerations apply, of course.


A recent article from British grandmaster Nigel Davies shows a clear con : http://chessimprover.com/can-you-improve-too-much/
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Laramonet
Senior Member
****
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 346
Location: Kidwelly
Joined: 03/16/07
Gender: Male
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #11 - 11/21/13 at 09:11:11
Post Tools
Eric's point about continued success meaning you soon won't be able to play in lower sections is important. As also mentioned by Pale Horse, Pale Rider and Katar, the ability to beat lower rated players is important to learn and practice. I think there is also a pressure angle. Many players where I play are quite happy to take on stronger players to fight for a draw, knowing there is no expectation. However, when asked to play on a lower board where they will be expected to win, this affects their approach and takes them out of their comfort zone.
In general, playing up is the way to go, perhaps up to 250 points above you but never underestimate learning to deal with the pressure of expectation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #10 - 11/21/13 at 03:34:35
Post Tools
Fortis wrote on 11/20/13 at 21:02:21:
So I am rated 1758 uscf (provisional with 21 games)

In otb tourneys should I be playing up into the next group, the "below 2000" group...or should I just stay where I am?

Here is how my last 2 tourneys went. I was rated 1668 and I played 3 players from 1517 to 1552 and I won all 3 games so my rating went to 1745. Then this weekend I played a 1520, a 1617, and a 1655 and I went 2.5 out of 3.

Its nice to win those games etc but is that really making me that much of a better player?

At the smaller tourneys I go to there are usually 2 groups at the top. Usually it would break down something like 1400-1750ish and then 1750ish and up would be the "open."

Should I just go ahead and play up to the open anyway?

----

A guy in the local club has always played up. In less than 18 months he has went from 1750 to 2006 rating. He sort of stalled at about 1850 for a while, I suppose since he was playing guys 1900-2200 every week but in the last 4 tourneys he has went up like 150 points.

I just know the chess I am playing against 1500's is way weaker than what I will face from 1900's and above. Would I be better to go ahead and face the stronger guys now, even if I lose more games, or should I just play my way up gradually?


Play up. The only way you'll learn how to beat the higher-rated players is to play them.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fortis
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 40
Joined: 07/28/13
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #9 - 11/21/13 at 01:55:25
Post Tools
katar wrote on 11/21/13 at 00:27:31:
Play up most of the time.
But efficiently crushing weaker players who grovel for a draw against you is a good skill to have.
GL


Thats sort of the choice. If you play much stronger players you are fighting uphill and lucky to get a draw...but you can learn from your mistakes etc.

If you play weaker players you can learn to attack and handle the initiative etc
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
katar
Senior Member
****
Offline


look another year went
by

Posts: 462
Location: LA
Joined: 09/21/05
Gender: Male
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #8 - 11/21/13 at 00:27:31
Post Tools
Play up most of the time.
But efficiently crushing weaker players who grovel for a draw against you is a good skill to have.
Above all, play play play, study & annotate your games, and don't think about ratings (yours and your opponents') so much.
GL
  

2078 uscf
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Fortis
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 40
Joined: 07/28/13
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #7 - 11/21/13 at 00:13:06
Post Tools
Gerry1970 wrote on 11/20/13 at 23:14:44:
Just wondering how you are so strong out of the blocks? Did you study a lot and play a lot online before your first tournament?

Gerry


I dont feel so strong lol

Im 46. I learned the moves from library books as a kid...maybe 9 yrs old?

Didnt have any1 to play of course...this was way before the internet. I played a few games when I was 27ish. Then I discovered the internet around 2000 and started playing some.

I had an account on icc in around 2001 I guess? was probably around 14-1500 blitz

Then I joined ICC again in maybe 2003 or 2004.

I played sporadically online, unrated, always playing kings gambit....that brings us up to about summer 2012.

In 2012 I happened upon a local chess club in starbux and I got back into chess fairly seriously. This was the first time I really ever had a chance to play otb.

Somewhere in 2012 I joined chesstempo and have worked on my tactics fairly regularly

Then in about Oct 2012 I joined the uscf and did my first tourney and I came out with a 1575 rating. I now have 21 rated games under my belt with a 1758 rating.

Sometimes I feel I can play ok but other times I feel like a newb....like this past weekend, against 3 players weaker than me, I didnt really get much out of the openings.

I cant visualize
I cant calculate
I am ignorant of endgames
I am ignorant of how to play pawn breaks etc
My memory sucks

other than that Im ok

of the 21 tourney games ive played, im semi proud of 2 of them...the others were BS lol
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #6 - 11/20/13 at 23:18:21
Post Tools
If you want to get better at the game, then in my opinion you should always play the strongest opponents you can.

I don't really understand the modern obsession weak players have with winning money, but if that's what you're interested in, then different considerations apply, of course.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gerry1970
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 482
Joined: 02/01/06
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #5 - 11/20/13 at 23:14:44
Post Tools
Just wondering how you are so strong out of the blocks? Did you study a lot and play a lot online before your first tournament?

Gerry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pale Horse, Pale Rider
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 287
Joined: 12/26/12
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #4 - 11/20/13 at 22:06:43
Post Tools
I also mainly agree with Eric. However, I think there is are some players who are kinda good at keeping stronger opponents at bay and draw them but are not very good at winning against lower rated players or players of the same level. I think in that specific case playing in against lower rated players might be more beneficial.
Maybe this doesn't occur so often, but I once had that problem ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #3 - 11/20/13 at 21:53:36
Post Tools
I tend to agree with Eric, with a major caveat:

In large tournaments, play your rating group. If you are to do well there, you will still gain huge amounts of rating points and perhaps even win some money.

In smaller tournaments, playing one section up is often recommended. But in truth, this is a decision for you and your coach to make based on your progress, your goals, and so on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dfan
God Member
*****
Offline


"When you see a bad move,
look for a better one"

Posts: 766
Location: Boston
Joined: 10/04/05
Re: Play up or play at current level? pros and cons
Reply #2 - 11/20/13 at 21:25:46
Post Tools
In general you should do both. I think it's good to have about a 50-50 split between tournaments where you are actively competing to win a prize and tournaments where you play up and are mostly trying to get experience against better players.

To get a higher rating you have to become good at both holding your own against players at that rating and consistently beating players who are below it. It is good to develop both skills.

For you in particular I would recommend playing up for now. Often new players take a few games to get into the groove of playing tournament chess, so I wouldn't be surprised if the rating gain you've seen in your last two tournaments is real. You've found out your lower bound (you're clearly better than 1600) - time to play some real competition and find out your upper bound.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo