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Normal Topic C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4 (Read 9687 times)
Knightcut
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #7 - 11/07/14 at 21:00:52
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tony37 wrote on 11/05/14 at 12:27:37:
I think after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 Black should play 11...Ke7 12.Re1 Qg6 with only a small advantage for White

Good idea, must say. Can White at all regain the piece in this line? One rather boring option is 13.Nxd5 Nxd5 14.Rxe5 Kd8 15.Bxd5 cxd5 16.Rxd5 Bd7 17.Bg5 Kc8 when White has three pawns for a Bishop. Not sure if it is any advantage at all.
  
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tony37
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #6 - 11/05/14 at 12:27:37
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I think after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 Black should play 11...Ke7 12.Re1 Qg6 with only a small advantage for White
  
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tony37
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #5 - 11/05/14 at 00:12:14
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strangely enough 11.Qd1 may actually be a very good move
but I propose 10...Kd7!? (planning Kc7), I have one obscure correspondence game with this move in my database:

colpitts (2056) - sion126 (2203)
Let's play chess http://gameknot.com/chess.pl?, 09.02.2009


edit: but I already found a refutation myself: 11.a3 Nxc3 12.axb4 Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Ra5 Kc7 15.Rxd5 Qf6 16.Qg3 Bxb4 17.Bg5 Qc6 18.Rxe5 Bd6 19.Be7 Kb8 20.d5 Qc7 21.Bxd6 Qxd6 22.c4 +-
  
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #4 - 11/04/14 at 16:27:34
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Knightcut wrote on 11/04/14 at 06:38:45:
barnaby wrote on 11/02/14 at 16:57:10:
Long analysis, wrong analysis

9. Qe4 still gives White the best chance.  The Bishop retreats to b3 after 9. ...b5 and White is just fine.


Hmmm...principially I agree, but I wonder how better insight into the Fried Liver can be injected by other means than long analysis. It has been debated for more than 400 years and assessments has been shifting from side to side over and over again. Then Sloughter comes with a "modern" contribution assisted by strong computerpower and programmes. What's wrong with that in such a complex opening? And how else to make progress?  

So at least for me, far more helpful than just stating that white is fine with bishop to b3 if b5 (a piece down!) whould be to suggest specic improvements for White in the Sloughter-analysis of 9.Qe4 elsewhere on this thread - and preferably early ones so that it don't get too long. That said, I would agree that White of course has winning chances in practise after 9.Qe4 - as many old games also clearly proves.




Sloughter is hardly the first person to offer such analysis, nor is he the first person to use 'strong computer power and programmes.'


Please. 

The bulk of his 'analysis' (which is nothing more than him playing games against an engine) deserves zero in-depth commentary or analysis.
  
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #3 - 11/04/14 at 06:38:45
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barnaby wrote on 11/02/14 at 16:57:10:
Long analysis, wrong analysis

9. Qe4 still gives White the best chance.  The Bishop retreats to b3 after 9. ...b5 and White is just fine.


Hmmm...principially I agree, but I wonder how better insight into the Fried Liver can be injected by other means than long analysis. It has been debated for more than 400 years and assessments has been shifting from side to side over and over again. Then Sloughter comes with a "modern" contribution assisted by strong computerpower and programmes. What's wrong with that in such a complex opening? And how else to make progress?  

So at least for me, far more helpful than just stating that white is fine with bishop to b3 if b5 (a piece down!) whould be to suggest specic improvements for White in the Sloughter-analysis of 9.Qe4 elsewhere on this thread - and preferably early ones so that it don't get too long. That said, I would agree that White of course has winning chances in practise after 9.Qe4 - as many old games also clearly proves.
« Last Edit: 11/04/14 at 08:00:56 by Knightcut »  
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #2 - 11/02/14 at 16:57:10
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Long analysis, wrong analysis

9. Qe4 still gives White the best chance.  The Bishop retreats to b3 after 9. ...b5 and White is just fine.
  
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Knightcut
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Re: C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
Reply #1 - 11/02/14 at 09:17:15
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Thanks a lot for these excellent analysis, Sloghter. I've been fascinated by the Fried Liver line since I first saw faced it back in 1999 in the final round of the champinonship in the local club (and lost with white). Having looked at afresh after Shirovs and Sulskis encounter at the Olympics in 2014 I agree with your assessment that 9.0-0! is whites best try (Shirov played 9.a3? and was faced with Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Nxd5 Kd6?! but not the stronger 11...Qh4!).

I tried to improve for Black in your line below with 10...Kd7 (instead of 10...Qf6), but saw no salvation after 11.a3 Nxc3 12.axb4! Nd5 13.Bxd5 cxd5 14.Ra5! +=.

I have had the chance to try the Black side of the Fried Liver three times recently on internet 10 minute games and won two convincingly after 9.a3? Nxc7+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Nxd6 Qh4!, but lost one after 9.0-0 (after numerous errors on both sides). In any case my clear impression from the games was that 11...Qh4! (Martin de Zeuws original suggestion, I think) is not only an artificial "computer-move-edge", but indeed also a very good practical choice. And so seems 9.0-0!
  
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C57: Fried Liver 9.O-O c6 10.d4
01/01/14 at 21:18:41
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The best try for a plus in the Fried Liver is 9.O-O; 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 (This is the point where play varies; Estrin recommended 10...Kd6, but in an article in Chess Life, Jon Edwards claimed a White advantage after 11.Ne4+ Kc7 12.c3 Na6 13.Bxa6 bxa6 14.dxe5 +/=)

A typical blunder in the 9.O-O c6 line is 10.d4 Nxc2? 11.Qe4!---The following moves are more or less forced: 11...Nxd4 12.Bf4! Bd6 13.Bxe5! Bxe5 14.f4 Nf5 15.fxe5 g6 16.g4 Rf8 17.gxf5+ Rxf5 18.Nxd5 cxd5 19.Rad1 Rxf1+ 20.Kxf1 Qf8+ 21.Ke2 dxc4 22.Rd6+ +/-  

Although White seems to get a strong attack after 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qe2 both Deep Fritz 14 and Houdini 3 Pro provide equalizing lines. The Fritz engine is a more convincing strategy:

11.Qe2 Ke7! 12.Ne4 Qg6 13.c3 Bf5 14.f3 Na6 15.dxe5 Kf7! (Houdini 3 Pro gives Ke8 but it is very complicated) 16.Ng5+ Kg8 17.g4 Bc8 18.f4 b5 19.f5 Qe8 20.Bxd5 cxd5 21.e6 h6 22.Nf7 Rh7 23.b4 (To keep the Knight out of c5; White has reached his maximum and it is tough to increase the pressure ) Among other equalizing plans Black threatens to play Nc7/Nxe6 just giving back the piece for two pawns but there is a simpler pathway to equality. While not forced if 23...Bb7 24.Bf4 d4! 25.cxd4 Qc6 & the threats on the diagonal should equalize.

Correct is 11.Qd1!! (This surprising retreat gives Black only remote chances to equalize. In my Big Data Base 2013 from Chess Base there is only one low-level game featuring this move) 11...exd4 (Ke7 12.Re1 +/=) 12.Ne4 Qf5!? (Qg6 13.c3 Kd7 14.Re1 b5 15.Bb3 Na6 16.a4 Nc5 17.Nxc5 Bxc5 18.axb5 +/=) 13.c3 dxc3 14.bxc3 Kd7 15.Re1 b5 16.Bb3 Kc7 (Black must give back the piece; on Na6 17.a4 +/-) 17.cxb4 Bxb4 18.Bd2 Rd8 19.Rc1 a5 20.a4 Bxd2 21.Qxd2 b4 22.Qd4 (Black's King position is too loose. There are three choices here---22...Ra6?, 22...g6, 23...Rd7) 22...Ra6 23.Nc5 Rb6 24.Qxg7+ Kb8 25.Rcd1 Rf8?! (Qg6 26.Qd4 +/-) 26.Qd4 Qf4 27.Ne4 Qc7 28.Qc5 Rd8 29.Qxa5 Ra6 30.Qc5 Ra5 31.Qc1 +-

Relatively best is 22...Rd7 23.Rc5 g6! 24.Rfc1 (Deep Fritz 14 dislikes its position enough that it sacrifices two pawns just to reach a barely tenable endgame) Nc3! 25.Nxc3 Rxd4 26.Nb5+ Kb7 27.Rxf5 Rd7 28.Rfc5 cxb5 29.Rxb5+ Ka7 30.Rxa5 Ba6  Black's b-pawn is fast enough that Black might equalize. 

Moody-Deep Fritz 14 continued: 31. h4 Kb6 32. Re5 Rb8 33. g4 Ka7 34. Re3 Rb6 35. Kg2 Rbd6 36. Rce1 Rd4 37. Kg3 Bc4 38. f3 Ka6 39. Bxc4+ Rxc4 40.Re8 b3 41. Rb8 Rc3 42. Re6+ Ka7 43. Reb6 Rf7 44. Kg2 Rfxf3 45. R8b7+ Ka8 46.Rb8+ Ka7 47. R8b7+ Ka8 48. Rb8+ * 1/2-1/2
« Last Edit: 01/01/14 at 22:38:45 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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