Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) best line against French defense for below 1600 pl (Read 67277 times)
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #20 - 02/18/14 at 05:50:48
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/18/14 at 04:04:19:
I had a feeling that anti-positional/pawn-dropping Bb5s might be quite common among something like sub-1600s.  I've also wondered how common it is for White to drop material after 3...c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Be2 cd 7. cd Nh6/Nge7.

Yeah, that happens sometimes, too. And I actually remember getting the Bb5 pawn drop against two opponents around 1700, in slow tournament games. Kinda surprising that it still happens at that level, but it does.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #19 - 02/18/14 at 04:04:19
Post Tools
I had a feeling that anti-positional/pawn-dropping Bb5s might be quite common among something like sub-1600s.  I've also wondered how common it is for White to drop material after 3...c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Be2 cd 7. cd Nh6/Nge7.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #18 - 02/18/14 at 03:37:37
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/18/14 at 01:31:36:
Seraph wrote on 02/17/14 at 21:40:22:
3. exd5

Yes, it's drawish. But you wouldn't have to learn that much theory since after that move it pretty much cuts down any other possibilities by black like the Winawer or Tarrasch or Fort Knox.


This myth of trading down one pawn to reach a "drawish" position has been debunked many times, in many places. Most recently, there's a thread on that idea here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1391619848

The Exchange variation is a reasonable practical line.

Honestly though, I don't think anyone, including those rated under 1600, should avoid an opening because they are worried about the amount of theory their U1600 opponents know.  So, even if Black is "prepared" for the Advance variation, it remains a great weapon for White.

While I totally agree with you about the Exchange variation, I don't agree about the Advance. 

As someone who started playing the French when I was rated 1250, I saw the Advance variation a LOT right from the start. At a time when I didn't know the theory of most openings I played more than 4 or 5 moves deep, I knew every common mistake that opponents might make in the Advance through at least move 8 or 9, because I saw it so much more than any other variation. Because of the closed center, it's not an opening where those mistakes will lead to immediate checkmate, but you'd be amazed how many times I got a free pawn when my opponents played Bb5. Everyone who plays the French knows which trick I'm talking about there.

My point is that if white wants to play it, he needs to do more opening study, or he'll definitely end up in a bad position early. There are other variations of the French that he can just dive in and improvise, only knowing the first 4 or 5 moves, and reach a reasonable position on opening principles from there. 
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #17 - 02/18/14 at 01:31:36
Post Tools
Seraph wrote on 02/17/14 at 21:40:22:
3. exd5

Yes, it's drawish. But you wouldn't have to learn that much theory since after that move it pretty much cuts down any other possibilities by black like the Winawer or Tarrasch or Fort Knox.


This myth of trading down one pawn to reach a "drawish" position has been debunked many times, in many places. Most recently, there's a thread on that idea here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1391619848

The Exchange variation is a reasonable practical line.

Honestly though, I don't think anyone, including those rated under 1600, should avoid an opening because they are worried about the amount of theory their U1600 opponents know.  So, even if Black is "prepared" for the Advance variation, it remains a great weapon for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 746
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #16 - 02/17/14 at 21:54:39
Post Tools
Fromper wrote on 02/17/14 at 21:13:27:
kylemeister wrote on 02/17/14 at 16:37:52:
Regarding the Alapin Gambit "pretty much giving up the first-move advantage," I would have thought that ECO (citing Keres) was closer to the truth when it gave it as leading to a clear advantage for Black. 

You're probably right, as the gambit's probably unsound, but who cares? We're talking about class level chess here. Playing this gambit will teach white to develop his pieces quickly and attack. Below 1800, educational value is more important than soundness in an opening. And frankly, this gambit is just fun to play. Rated in the 1600s and 1700s, I was still pulling this gambit out regularly, though never twice against the same opponent over 1600. I just figured they'd look it up after the first time and find some way to ruin my fun.  Wink

kylemeister wrote on 02/17/14 at 16:37:52:
Of course one possibility is to play the Tarrasch and aim for the Korchnoi Gambit/Universal System; I wonder if accepting that pawn is more common at lower levels than is the case these days at higher ones.


You know, I keep seeing this Korchnoi Gambit mentioned, but I don't even know what it is. Given how much I've played the French as black, you'd think I'd know all the lines by now, but you really don't see the Tarrasch very much at class level. I still see the Exchange, Advance, and Nc3 a lot more than Nd2.


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 2.Nd2 Nf6 3.e5 Nfd7 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Ngf3!?,
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seraph
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


You gotta risk it to get
the biscuit

Posts: 22
Joined: 02/14/14
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #15 - 02/17/14 at 21:40:22
Post Tools
3. exd5

Yes, it's drawish. But you wouldn't have to learn that much theory since after that move it pretty much cuts down any other possibilities by black like the Winawer or Tarrasch or Fort Knox.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #14 - 02/17/14 at 21:13:27
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/17/14 at 16:37:52:
Regarding the Alapin Gambit "pretty much giving up the first-move advantage," I would have thought that ECO (citing Keres) was closer to the truth when it gave it as leading to a clear advantage for Black. 

You're probably right, as the gambit's probably unsound, but who cares? We're talking about class level chess here. Playing this gambit will teach white to develop his pieces quickly and attack. Below 1800, educational value is more important than soundness in an opening. And frankly, this gambit is just fun to play. Rated in the 1600s and 1700s, I was still pulling this gambit out regularly, though never twice against the same opponent over 1600. I just figured they'd look it up after the first time and find some way to ruin my fun.  Wink

kylemeister wrote on 02/17/14 at 16:37:52:
Of course one possibility is to play the Tarrasch and aim for the Korchnoi Gambit/Universal System; I wonder if accepting that pawn is more common at lower levels than is the case these days at higher ones.


You know, I keep seeing this Korchnoi Gambit mentioned, but I don't even know what it is. Given how much I've played the French as black, you'd think I'd know all the lines by now, but you really don't see the Tarrasch very much at class level. I still see the Exchange, Advance, and Nc3 a lot more than Nd2.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
chandrashekharkoravi
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 155
Joined: 08/13/13
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #13 - 02/17/14 at 18:30:01
Post Tools
Thanks for all your replies friends.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #12 - 02/17/14 at 18:15:11
Post Tools
The Korchnoi/Universal Gambit in 3.Nd2 is a pretty good choice, and fairly common at club level already I think.  I think that the 2 knights would also make quite a good choice, but the trouble would be finding good study material--perhaps Moskalenko's book?  Other than that, it's pretty much just sound positional chess, a la My System.  A good and practical way of meeting the French, and I suspect that a lot of French players who haven't read Nimzovitch will be surprised to see dxc5!.  

The one variation I'd seriously advise against is the Exchange.  If we're trying to teach class players to play good, logical moves in the opening, it's kind of hard to justify freeing the c8-bishop.  Paradoxically, I think that both sides have to have a fairly high understanding of chess to play those "boring" positions really well.  Otherwise, people just trade everything off via the open e-file and opposing bishop on d3/f5 and d6/f4--snore.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
katar
Senior Member
****
Offline


look another year went
by

Posts: 462
Location: LA
Joined: 09/21/05
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #11 - 02/17/14 at 17:58:50
Post Tools
Below 1600, you want to get in and get out of openings so you have time to look at classic games and do 15 minutes of daily tactics puzzles (not to mention have a life outside of chess).  That means that ideally, the basic idea should be understandable in 10 minutes.  So here goes:
(1) Exchange French with Be3 or Bf4, Qd2, and 0-0-0.  You want Black to castle short like a robot, then you try to checkmate him.  I would search for Abby Marshall's article on this at chesscafe.com: EDIT: here it is: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/abby20.pdf
(2) Another option is 2 Knights: 1.e4 and bring your knights out.  After e5xf6 and d4xc5 White will try to blockade the central dark squares, ideally with a knight planted on e5-- this makes the c8 bishop bad.  Also a knight on e5 helps you play g2-g4 to checkmate the guy's king.  White will also look to castle long here to go for the g2-g4 plan, but castling short is fine too and then the plan is really just to blockade e5 at all costs and trade off every piece to aim for a good knight vs bad bishop endgame.

Which one to choose?  Vanilla or chocolate.  Which one makes more sense to you?  If you still can't decide, look at a few games for each opening in a database such as 365chess.com

There is a lot of value in not getting bogged down in minute details.  You want a basic plan or concept to aim for.  You don't want move-by-move theory.  After you have the basic concept you can open a database and select moves that strike you as logical or intuitive.  From positions you arrive at by logical/intuitive moves  you can spend maybe 20-30 minutes scrolling thru games by titled players and consider what each side is trying to do.  The goal is to be efficient, then put the opening study away and look at miniature games or a classic book like Spielmann's Art of Sacrifice.
« Last Edit: 02/18/14 at 00:43:14 by katar »  

2078 uscf
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #10 - 02/17/14 at 16:37:52
Post Tools
Regarding the Alapin Gambit "pretty much giving up the first-move advantage," I would have thought that ECO (citing Keres) was closer to the truth when it gave it as leading to a clear advantage for Black.   

Of course one possibility is to play the Tarrasch and aim for the Korchnoi Gambit/Universal System; I wonder if accepting that pawn is more common at lower levels than is the case these days at higher ones.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #9 - 02/17/14 at 16:03:21
Post Tools
We haven't quite covered every reply yet. I was about to mention the Alapin Gambit (3. Be3). Grin And as much as I like gambits, I never saw the appeal of the Milner-Barry Gambit in the French, though I do play the Caro Kann gambit with the same name.

I'll agree with the poster above who said that French players at low level see the Advance far more than anything else, so we end up being really prepared for it. That was my experience when I started playing the French, rated around 1250 USCF at the time, and probably until hitting the 1500s or higher. As white, I'd recommend avoiding that variation at first, just for that reason.

The real question is whether the white player wants to really learn the French, or would prefer to focus on getting better at tactics. If your goal is tactical improvement, then go for the Exchange or Alapin Gambit, both of which pretty much give up the first move advantage, but give you wide open, tactical games where you'll learn tactics or die trying. Especially the Alapin, partially because of the lead in development gained from gambiting a pawn (the double edged nature of gambits), and partially because of the balanced and potentially boring pawn structure in the Exchange. Going with one of these would be my recommendation for a 1400, since learning tactics is more important than learning a specific opening at that level. Also, French players tend to hate the Exchange, and most of them at that low level won't have seen the Alapin before, so they'll have no clue how to deal with it.

If you really want to learn something about the French, then Nc3 and Nd2 are probably both good options. 

I really don't understand all this fear of the Winawer for a 1400. It's not like he's going to walk into the mainline of the poisoned pawn facing opponents who know all the details as well as a GM. Just push 4. e5, unpin with 5. Bd2, and send your knight up to Nb5 to try and wreak havoc in black's position. Maybe it's not the strongest line to play by master standards, but it's sound enough, avoids the most demanding main lines, and can be fun to play. That's actually the line I was playing as white in the one and only game where I got a definitively winning position in a slow tourney game against a master... which I then proceeded to blunder away in time trouble and lose the game anyway. But that's why he's rated over 2200, and I peaked just short of 1800.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #8 - 02/17/14 at 12:25:07
Post Tools
I guess we have every possibility covered now, and I'm sure that chandrashekharkoravi  is happy he asked Wink.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 108
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #7 - 02/17/14 at 12:07:03
Post Tools
2 other ideas: 
* Exchange with Nf3 and c4
* KIA

Why?  There is (a) less to learn and some thematic play and (b) Black (at club level) will generally be relatively less familiar with these approaches (although KIA is very popular in some places). 

I know that Black can generate a lot of setups vs. the KIA but at club level you don't see it as much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: best line against French defense for below 1600 pl
Reply #6 - 02/17/14 at 11:05:04
Post Tools
3.Nc3 and make the rest up as you go along.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo