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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire Critique (Read 19454 times)
Crapov
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #37 - 12/31/14 at 12:02:04
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Well done Isolated_Pawn on making a choice and sticking with it. Looks like a very sensible repertoire. I have all of those books and like them all for what it's worth.
  
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msiipola
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #36 - 12/31/14 at 10:17:14
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Pete Tamburro says you should play variations you like. I think this is very important at amateur level.

For example the QGD is one of the "best" openings, but if you don't like playing it, you should not.

In his book Openings for Amateurs, Tim Tamburro writes this about meeting the Sicilian (amateurs with limit time for opening studies):
1. Your opening system cannot require a lot of memorization. You should not play the open Sicilian.
2. Follow general principles so you can get to a playable game. Suggestions: Closed system, Alapin (c3), Rossolimo or Hungarian.
3. The playable game that you reach must be one that you are comfortable with. Select a variation you like.
4. Play solid and aggressive. All variations above fits this requirement.
5. A system which give you comfort and makes your opponent uncomfortable.
6. Understand the underlying pawn structure and how to play the ending resulting from them.
7. Pick a system you can grow with. All suggested lines have been played by GM:s and even world champions.

In his book Tim Tamburro gives suggestions and examples for most common opening as white and black.

As I said in my previous posting, Tamburro's book is the best and most valuable opening book I have read about opening play. When you have picked a variation you like from the game examples, you can buy more specialized books.
  
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Isolated_Pawn
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #35 - 12/31/14 at 01:22:57
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Sorry for being MIA guys, I check the forum infrequently; I will give a little bit of an update.  After the advice in this thread, I picked up three books:  Starting out 1. e4 by McDonald, Meeting 1. e4 by Raetsky (sp?), and Meeting 1. d4 by Aagaard and Lund.  Got all of them used on Amazon marketplace for like $15 total.

This gives a pretty good repertoire for an active player I think:

As White:

-Scotch
-Open Sicilian
-French Tarrasch
-Caro-Kann Panov/Panov Botvinnik
-5. Nc3 in the Petroff
-I haven't studied the lines vs the Alekhine and the Pirc as I rarely see them.

As Black:

-Sicilian Four Knights
-My favorite opening, the Tarrasch defense
-Some lines with ... c6 vs Reti (though I generally just play a Tarrasch-like formation at this point)
-A fun move that I never thought of against the London -- 3. ... Bd6, which seems to bring easy equality.


All in all it seems like it's working out great.  I didn't really know about the Sicilian Four Knights until Raetsky's book was recommended in this thread, and it seems like the perfect Sicilian for a player of my level.  Maybe I move to the Svesh or Kalash at some point in the far future, but I think this will prepare me well.

I started out by playing chess.com correspondence-style games with the books in front of me, in order to learn the repertoire, and pretty much fit like a glove.  I don't get to play a lot of OTB often, but our city championship candidates tournament is this weekend and I intend to use these lines.

Thanks everyone for the help.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #34 - 12/29/14 at 22:28:18
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I'm afraid not GeneM, your whole post is inaccurate or false.
  
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GeneM
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #33 - 12/29/14 at 22:09:24
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.
msiipola wrote on 12/29/14 at 17:27:32:
... choose sound variations which do not require lot of theory ...

This type of statement is made by lots of chess enthusiasts. But it seems like a silly statement.

The opponent chooses "my" variations as much as I do. The opponent will not choose the deep but thin variation that I know well and want him to choose.

I know of and own one old (1970-1980) chess book about the opening phase that contains no variations (well, technically an exaggeration). Unfortunately although the book is marketed as giving general guidance on how to play an opening when you do not know the current variation that is on the chess board, instead it mostly gives platitudes and the usual generalities (develop, castle, control the center).

---- ---- ----


When I do not know the variation, I mostly want to know

(a) the types of tactical blunders that most often occur in the general positions which arise from opening X or Y; and

(b) the strategic or positional themes that are most important in the positions that generally arise from opening X or Y.


IS there such a chess book about the openings?

My guess is - "No, because there could be no such information even in theory. Every variation is its own world of tactical pitfalls, and slight optical changes in position often have large effects on the best strategic or positional courses of action. So, study of the chess opening phase is 98% raw variations to be understood then memorized, and is nothing else."
Right?
.
  

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msiipola
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #32 - 12/29/14 at 17:27:32
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Probably many of the recommendations given in this thread are good, but which will you go pick?

I have looked in most of the repertoire books written by well known authors, but have not liked any of these until I found: "Opening for Amateurs" by Pete Tamburro.

He suggest you to play what you feel comfortable with. And to choose sound variations which do not require lot of theory, but if you want and have the time, can be expanded to major line variations.

It feels like my quest for an opening repertoire is ended for a while. I recommend this book for any below 1800.

Se also: http://www.amazon.com/Openings-Amateurs-Pete-Tamburro/dp/1936277506/ref=sr_1_1?i...
« Last Edit: 12/29/14 at 18:44:24 by msiipola »  
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chk
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #31 - 12/24/14 at 09:49:11
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Oh my, only now I realised this thread was so long ago! Also interested to hear from the OP how is the rep progressing..
  

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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #30 - 12/23/14 at 19:51:40
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Although I would make one adjustment and go for the Kalishnikov over the Svesh.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #29 - 12/23/14 at 19:49:51
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So, since the thread was so long ago, what ended up happening anyway?

Having looked at the original post, I don't see anything wrong with the repertoire at all, especially since all repertoires are subject to adjustment. I can see that happening as chess development and boredom mandate playing something other than the exchange against the French. 

There's plenty of waxing as to what is the correct philosophy when you pick an opening to play. But really it depends a lot on what your position is and what your goals are. 

If you're 12 and have really supportive (or rich) parents, a coach, and access to material...and you have a goal of reaching at least IM, then yeah you should pick some classical openings and mainline stuff that will help you grow as a player. 

Short of this though, just pick what suits your style. 

It seems to me the repertoire does this very nicely. Plenty of players have made expert and even IM with that kind of opening armory.
  

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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #28 - 12/22/14 at 11:48:43
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Sorry for not reading all the posts above (it was a bit too much for me). So sorry if I end up repeating others.

Just joined to underline what Ericthe Red and Othy suggest above: follow your instincts and play the Sicilian as Black.

It is the same problem with playing the Open Sicilian as White now or later on (I agree with others that it is better to start now):
Playing the Sicilian as Black at your level you will face a lot of dangerous Anti-Sicilians (the Closed, the Alapin-c3, the Bb5 lines, the Grand Prix  to name the most important ones). So better start learning these now, than having to learn the Sicilian and the Anti-Sicilians at one go, say when you reach 1800.

If you have easy access to books then there is a small book named "How to play the sicilian defence" (old book published by Batsford) - it helped me to quickly get a feeling of all the main Sicilians (has old but very thematic games). This is for deciding which main line Sicilian to use (e.g. Sveshnikov) - or you could consult a strong player with experience in the Sicilian.

I will also take some time here to mention my personal feeling about the main Sics:
- Najdorf (pluses: you will be exposed to many different positions, it is very easy in the future to alter your lines if needed, you can play it based on ideas & plans / minuses: when you become a stronger player you will need to invest time to learn specific lines).
- Dragon (pluses: very nice opening / minuses: you get exposed to limited amount of positions)
- Accelerated Dragon (pluses: a very sound & solid opening / minuses: tends to be drawish, facing the Maroczy Bind (e4 & c4 pawns) may not be to your taste)
- Taimanov (pluses: the perfect choice imo, sound & can become positional. you can choose your move order to avoid certain anti-sicilians / minuses: I cannot find any, maybe that the Najdorf is sharper if you need to win)
- Classical (pluses: can transpose to many other lines in the future, i.e. you may replace some of your Najdorf lines with Classical lines, you can choose your move order to avoid certain anti-sicilians / minuses: some lines like the Richter-Rauzer (Bg5) are very dangerous for Black and need a lot of preparation imo).
- Sveshnikov (pluses: sound, can play for a win / minuses: especially in the positional line I cannot see how Black can play for a win, White's can easily side-step the Sveshnikov via 3. Nc3, also 3. Bb5 is a strong anti-Sicilian)
- Scheveningen, Kalashnikov, Kan and some other lines are interesting to discuss but I say you decide first on the above and then do some refinement in your decision making

If you insist on the Sveshnikov I have no great experience, but I was preparing as White recently against it and checked a few lines and I must admit that "The Easiest Sicilian" is a very interesting book and its format will help you a lot (has 3 sections: 1st gives plans & ideas / 2nd gives concrete lines / 3rd cites complete games). You can read only the 1st parts for the time being and when you start playing the Svesh you may come back to the book to consult parts 2 & 3 depending on the lines played in your games. That reduces the workload so that you can focus on the Anti-Sicilians (very important imo!).

But if you like the Petroff I do not object as it is an interesting opening leading to open positions. But imo it starts becoming a good drawing weapon only after you become a really strong player first! (say 2200+).
  

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Crapov
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #27 - 12/20/14 at 16:49:54
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A bit late to the party but I just wanted to thank Othy for his excellent post (reply #24). That was really helpful.
  
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #26 - 03/03/14 at 17:56:09
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I'll somewhat randomly throw in the following.  When I was rated around the same as the OP, I played the Classical French (which the OP was considering, until he was persuaded otherwise by watching two minutes of a video -- I'll never understand such things).  I picked it up from a local player who was something of a model for me, and studied the material on it in a couple of books (this was at a time of more generalized opening works -- certainly no Multi-Volume Grandmaster Repertoire back then).  In the only game I can readily recall with 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7, I was faced with a completely misguided (but maybe very attractive to C-players) idea of Nb5-d6.

Against the Alekhine-Chatard I played 6...c5 (which was perhaps the main move at the time, but later seemed to go out of favor).  One of the possible replies, 7. Nb5, was supposed to lead to complications perhaps ending in a perpetual.  But after 7...f6 ("!"), White was supposed to avoid 8. ef Nxf6, with "an excellent position" for Black.

I was brought back to that decades-old stuff today ...


  
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #25 - 03/02/14 at 08:55:05
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Isolated_Pawn wrote on 02/25/14 at 00:01:01:

Against 1. e4 e5, I will play the Scotch Four Knight's Game with Nxc6, reached from the Four Knight's Game move order.  Using the Four Knights move order prevents ... Qf6 after Nxc6, which is the most difficult line for White, and the most theoretically complex.


It's not much of a theoretical add-on, but try playing the Scotch Four Knights with 10.h3 instead of the early pin of Black's knight with Bg5. White gets to play with a little more flexibility than usual, and there are plenty of games you can look at for ideas.

Quote:

Against 1. e4 e6 and 1. e4 c6 I will play the Monte Carlo Exchange Variation and Panov-Botvinnik attack, respectively.  Both of these openings allow us to get an open game quickly and give good attacking chances and piece play with the IQP pawn structure.


If you're going to play the Panov-Botvinnik, then I doubt you want to play "The Endgame" variation, which has the tendency of cropping up a lot. Knowing this, consider reaching it from 1.e4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nxd5 6.Nf3. There is plenty of interesting play to be had and you get your IQP.

The 4.c4 Exchange French is something I simply cannot recommend. It may fit your goal of open positions, but it does so in such a way that you are making Black's life a bit too easy. 3.Nc3 will give you aggressive positions to play with as a rule, and not the exception. Yes, there is some theory, but White's play is usually quite natural. You have to learn to play with pawn chains at some point, anyway.

Quote:

Against 1. e4 c5 I will *gradually* learn the basics of the open sicilian.  I understand that anti-sicilian lines may be adequate, but it seems that if we want to play an *attacking* game and not play down a pawn, the open sicilian is the way to go.


Open Sicilians are the way to go. Plenty of flexibility in choosing where the game takes you.

Quote:

As black:

Versus 1. e4.  Here I have a dilemma.  The opening that I would like to play, ultimately, is the sicilian defense.  Specifically, I think the Sveshnikov variation would be a good fit for me.  But, I understand that the sicilian is massively complex to play.  So, I was thinking that maybe I would start with the Petroff, and move to the Sicilian later (once I have better positional understanding and some experience playing the white side).  Then, I can play the Petroff when I want a draw, and the Svesh when I want a win.


Learn the Sveshnikov first. You're 1500. You need to win now. Plus, when you learn a complex opening like a Sicilian learning something more straightforward seems easier.

Quote:

Versus 1. d4, another dilemma.  The Leningrad Dutch seems like a great way to get a counterattack without the massive amount of variations in the KID and Grunfeld.  But, I don't know if I should be playing hypermodern/fianchettos at all at this point anyway.  The alternative would be the Tarrasch defense, which opens the game up and synergizes with my white openings vs french and caro kann (all give me an IQP).


Tarrasch Defense covers all flank openings and 1.d4. This makes it efficient, and that makes it a good choice for your purpose.
  

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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #24 - 03/02/14 at 05:16:19
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I'm going to try and re-focus the discussion back on the OP. Isolated Pawn, it looks like you have done everything as you should up to this point in your chess education. You approached the crowd here in this forum with a clear understanding of the type of player you are, what your goals are, and a very sensible plan for pursuing those goals. I commend you.

As the thread has gone on and you seem to have done a bit of research it appears to me that you have become caught up in some of the philosophical channels of opening selection. There are serious pitfalls when it comes to amateur theorizing about openings, and you can spend the next 10 years stuck in this process of debating and rationalizing your opening choices. Nothing will hold you back from gaining the next 500 rating points than getting stuck in these opening rationales.

Again, I would say that you have a VERY good outlook and plan set forth from the beginning of this thread. The most important thing is to trust your initial instincts and proceed in them confidently. The added confidence will help you over the board as well.

You can play quite literally ANY set of main line openings and reach 2000+ on your middlegame and endgame ability alone. It is not worth getting bogged down. That all said, here are my suggestions based on your instinctive opening proposals:

White 1.e4

1...e5: Four Knights Scotch is perfectly playable, but doesn't allow for much of an aggressive style. I suspect you will become annoyed with the positions you get pretty quickly. Following your instincts would mean giving it a go and seeing. Personally, I think the regular Scotch would be a good alternative. Not drastically changing the nature of the game, but giving you more aggressive options that are still sound and skipping learning third move side lines in the Three Knights.. In my experience amateur players are a bit frustrated by the Scotch. Try following some model high-level players and then learn as you go. Against the Petroff I think 3.d4 is worth learning, or you can play 3.Nc3 and transpose back into the Four Knights Scotch.

1...c5: Stick with the Open Sicilians. The longer you wait the more difficult it is, so I don't think it's worth starting out with lines like the c3-Sicilian. Start by playing simply and classically, e4, Nf3, d4, Nxd4, Nc3, Be2, Be3, with ideas like 0-0 and f4. Then learn specific lines as you go and play games. This gives you a solid foundation and avoids overwhelming you with theory.

1...c6: Exchange Panove-Botvinnik. This is your instincts, is perfectly alive and playable, and will give you important experience in the IQP positions. The sooner you expose yourself to these the better for your chess education. It'll only be more difficult to do once you're higher rated.

1...e6: This is where some of the richest chess instruction can take place. Again, your instincts are perfectly reasonable and it might be best just to follow them. EricTheRed makes some good points, but there could still be a lot of value in you gaining the experience in those positions and learning from them when opponents start to pose you real challenges. The Advance French is also a great suggestion and is one of the best places to learn about closed pawn centers. The Classical is also a great variation, and another one where the sooner you can convince yourself to dive into it the easier it will be to learn. My best advice is not to worry too much about specifics when making your decision. Trust your instincts, choose one and stick with it. You won't truly learn anything about yourself in any of them until you've played a good dozen serious games in them with serious follow-up study to understand them. Learn and research after you've played. There are a lot of hidden nuances that you can't possibly expect to pick up on from a few blitz games. Don't judge them based on whether or not you "have a feel" after a couple casual outings.

1...Others: Don't even worry about them until you've encountered them, then begin the study based on your experiences. My best advice when the time does come is not to be intimidated by them and choose the main variations.

Black

1.e4: I feel this is the most important place to trust your initial instincts and get away from the rationalizing. Play the Sicilian, all the way. You WILL want it to be a part of your repertoire at some point. If you wait until you are already 2000 it WILL be a pain in the butt to learn, because you'll be afraid of the depth of theory everywhere. Start the process as soon as possible where you will be beating your peers in the middle and endgames even if you slip up the opening. You will be glad to have the dynamism in your positions later. Any tactical line emphasizing clear plans with active piece play will work. The Dragon, the Accelerated Dragon and the Raetsky line are all prime candidates and could all carry you straight to 2400+ if you specialize in them.

The Petroff is another opening with a lot of nuance that you won't pick up your first times playing, so I still think it's a good candidate. But the Sicilian has a lot more return on investment. I don't recommend the Berlin. While it's a great opening, you can be doing better things with your time right now than learning to play against the 5.Re1 lines and trying to understand the complexities of the Berlin Wall endgames. The French is also a great opening, but I think your consideration of it is caught up in the rationalizing and philosophizing your opening selections and it won't prove to be worth the time in the long run. It's an easy opening to learn later in your career, so don't rush to play it for what you might learn now.

My own bit of rationalizing now: If you assume that you'll one day switch from one opening to another, starting in the Sicilian and years later learning the French will be easier and better for your play than starting in the French and years later learning the Sicilian. Stick with your initial instincts.

1.d4: Anything is playable and will remain playable until at least the 2000 level. Again I suggest sticking with your instincts. The Tarrasch is a good opening, clear plans, combines tactical and positional elements well with active and natural piece play. I would recommend starting here. The Dutch is an opening of learning positional exceptions and how to effectively break the rules of principled opening play. It's playable and tricky, but there will also be many more painful losses involved in the learning process. I think completing your education of primary principles is more important first. Remember, these principles don't stop at "bring your pieces to the center" and "castle early" and the other half-dozen basic opening rules. There are layers of understanding to them that run deep. As a 2100 player I am still discovering new intricacies about them. I suggest you keep at it with the Tarrasch.
  
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Re: Repertoire Critique
Reply #23 - 03/01/14 at 23:49:43
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/28/14 at 11:21:58:
Well 19 posts without being chastised is better than some have managed, Seraph (which is kind of a funny name considering your avatar, unless you mean that you are burning with anger).  But anyway most people will expect you to contribute with some moves/analysis, i.e. instead of "there's a line against that," "after 6.Bc4 the best line for Black is" and then actually supply some moves.  

And FYI (something that took me a long time to realize around here), many of the people (perhaps even most?) that post are correspondence players, so the sort of practical, good-for-an-over-the-board-try type stuff doesn't always go over super well here.  Not that I think 4...Ne4 is good for over-the-board, but you get my drift.


Ah, (majority?) correspondence players. Thanks for the heads-up. 

My avatar is what I picture other people doing when they see  "someone is wrong on the internet" and feel that they must reply. 

Cheesy

It's all good!
  
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